Lancs Eagle Owls (1 Viewer)

[Amarillo]

what I do know is, in the majority of cases, an introduced species causes harm to native species, all over the World. Is that not a fact?

Yes, it is usually the case when a species is introduced to a completely alien ecosystem. However, it is nowhere near as clear-cut when introducing a species from one part of a continent to another, where it interacts with broadly the same species.

Apologies for going over old ground again. I appreciate that some people see it as black and white (introduced or native) and I respect that view, but please at least try to understand the logic by which some of us want to monitor the situation first, before taking action.

 

[saluki]

te forest of bowland seems to have a very high density of birds but tht was lacking anywhere near the eagle owl nest - i had seen no other corvids except a few ravens. there were no carrion crows or magpies around.

The whole area's heavily keepered - I was looking at a large crow trap at Botton Head, not far from the e.owls, just yesterday.

Jonathan

 

[Isurus]

there also needs to be a system checking who has what pets wise and then if animals are sold, exchanged etc a department needs to be notified - bit like the DVLA and cars. i think all birds should have some sort of tag or ring on to show it is an escapee. of course these tags/rings could be taken off if owners deliberately let them go but the owner should have to answer questions released to the disappearance of the bird. i don't know if they have a system like that already.

there also needs to be exact information given out about how many eagle owls are breeding in the uk and possibly which areas - of course vague areas mentionned as don't want the birds to receive unsavoury visitors

I agree in principle but a licensing scheme would be very difficult because a) its hard to get the scheme up and running with an accurate database, b) people could release the owl and say it died and c) people may release their animals before the scheme comes in- 70's big cats and DWAA anyone?

I fear the genie is out of the bottle already.

 

[PaulD]

Agree with most of the above. However I don't think your comparison with Tawny Owl is particularly valid. Tawny Owl is the most common owl on the continent with a density much higher and range much wider than EO. So of course there is a much higher chance for sea crossings by TO. If EO had the same density and range the possibility of crossing would be equally high.

I suspect we are in broad agreement, as, if you are suggesting that the comparison is a long way short of conclusive evidence then I 100% agree. However if you are saying that it’s almost worthless then I would disagree. I think it falls somewhere between the two and provides food for thought.

Most data on dispersal distances etc comes from ringing and as you suggest the sample size for Tawny Owl will be much larger, so the chances of getting a ringing recovery involving a sea crossing will be much larger.

But clearly the chances of getting a recovery involving a sea crossing are not solely dependant on sample size. Fewer Hawk Owls have been rung than Eagle Owls, but even so sea crossings have been recorded. Fewer Long-eared Owls have been rung than Tawny Owls, but there are far more sea crossing recoveries for Long-eared Owls than Tawny Owls.

Again I’m not arguing that Eagle Owls are incapable of making a sea crossing, but I think it is pretty widely acknowledged that Tawny Owls avoid sea crossings, and the lack of ringing recoveries etc suggests that Eagle Owls are the same.

Obviously you can argue that the lack of evidence of sea crossings by Eagle Owls doesn’t mean they don’t do them, but what it surely does is make it extremely unlikely that they do it with the sort of frequency to produce anything other than vagrancy status in Britain.

 

[Himalaya]

any updates on how the owls are getting on? surely the young will fly the nest soon?

 

[rezMole]

My girlfriend and I went to see them yesterday. One adult bird and three "chicks" still easily viewed. Can herdly tell the chicks from the adult. Got one good view of one of the chicks flying (for about 50 yards).

Not easy birds to see because of the long, uphill walk!

 

[PaulD]

I think the young are fairly mobile now, but are still in the same area. BWP says they don't leave the natal area until August/September, so they could be around for a while yet.

 

[talon]

im not really bothered where this species has come from but they would be more than welcome on my list with them now breeding they should be counted as something as comon as a starling

but i have another little problem i have black swans breeding on a res near me now in two years we are going to be in the same boat as eagle owls is there any reports of black swans coming in off of the sea so where would we stand in two years with these black swans ?
any help would be appreciated

 

[Farnboro John]

im not really bothered where this species has come from but they would be more than welcome on my list with them now breeding they should be counted as something as comon as a starling

but i have another little problem i have black swans breeding on a res near me now in two years we are going to be in the same boat as eagle owls is there any reports of black swans coming in off of the sea so where would we stand in two years with these black swans ?
any help would be appreciated

There is one that commutes occasionally between Drift Res and the Scillies, so it must "come in-off" from time to time but given the Australian origin of the species its not really a goer as a vagrant I fancy.

A possible candidate for Cat C eventually though.

John

 

[DGRW]

Item 1. I entirely understand the concerns regarding allowing an essentially non-native top pedator to thrive as a breeding population within UK ecologies.

Item 2. I'm not at all so certain of the arguments in favour of removing birds that are non-native simply because they are non-native.

Black Swan, Mandarin Duck, Rose Ringed Parakeets and I'm sure many others would all be on the eradication list.

I also understand the principle that; a non-native top predator is an entirely different kettle of fish to a non-native non-predatory species however; I do not feel that to back-up the principle of Item 1 using the principle of item 2 is particularly justifiable or logical as the massive range of potential interactions between species and within ecologies is, in many cases, not entirely understood let alone proven.

Apparently:

Item 3. it is perfectly acceptible to re-introduce a top predator such as a White Tailed Eagle into ecologies within which their viability is largely unproven on the basis that; species once inhabited a particular geographic area and despite the fact that the ecology of that area has radically altered since that species was last present there but taking into account that this species is successful and viable within similar ecologies in other parts of Europe

Item 4. but it is not acceptible to allow another top predator such as the Eagle Owl to breed and flourish within ecologies where (again) their viability is largely unproven on the basis that; that species is considered to be non-native or vagrant at best within a geographic area but taking into account that this species is successful and viable within similar ecologies in other parts of Europe

The two apparently opposing arguments can only be made to stand together by using the principles of my previously noted item 2.

I do not believe that the principles of item 2 offer a particularly valid argument to back-up the principles of item 1 within ecologies such as those that we now have in the UK and that are essentially artificial ecologies, ecologies within which the species referenced in my items 3 and 4 are both essentially non-native if we talk in terms of ecologies rather than simply geographic areas.

I am still doubtful that the proposition that Eagle Owls as a breeding population within UK ecologies will damage UK ecologies is correct when the same arguments and principles are not applied to other top predators in similar ecological circumstances.

Yes; I know that Eagle Owls and White tailed Eagles are disimilar in many ways but they are still both essentially top predators that are non-native to modern UK ecologies.

Does the argument then stand or fall based upon a purely geographical genetic contention or does it stand or fall based upon a genuine and valid ecological argument couched in terms of modern ecologies as opposed to ecologies that largely no longer exist?

If the only real and proven deciding factor is geographic; based upon the presumption that UK ecologies are entirely natural and unchanged (an obviously erroneous presumption) rather than upon genuinely ecological concerns and the roles that species adopt within essentially artificial environments such those present in the UK; then Black Swan, Mandarin Duck, Rose Ringed Parakeets and the others must logically also go.

 

[Pugs]

Item 1. I entirely understand the concerns regarding allowing an essentially non-native top pedator to thrive as a breeding population within UK ecologies.

Item 2. I'm not at all so certain of the arguments in favour of removing birds that are non-native simply because they are non-native.

Black Swan, Mandarin Duck, Rose Ringed Parakeets and I'm sure many others would all be on the eradication list.

I also understand the principle that; a non-native top predator is an entirely different kettle of fish to a non-native non-predatory species however; I do not feel that to back-up the principle of Item 1 using the principle of item 2 is particularly justifiable or logical as the massive range of potential interactions between species and within ecologies is, in many cases, not entirely understood let alone proven.

Apparently:

Item 3. it is perfectly acceptible to re-introduce a top predator such as a White Tailed Eagle into ecologies within which their viability is largely unproven on the basis that; species once inhabited a particular geographic area and despite the fact that the ecology of that area has radically altered since that species was last present there but taking into account that this species is successful and viable within similar ecologies in other parts of Europe

Item 4. but it is not acceptible to allow another top predator such as the Eagle Owl to breed and flourish within ecologies where (again) their viability is largely unproven on the basis that; that species is considered to be non-native or vagrant at best within a geographic area but taking into account that this species is successful and viable within similar ecologies in other parts of Europe

The two apparently opposing arguments can only be made to stand together by using the principles of my previously noted item 2.

I do not believe that the principles of item 2 offer a particularly valid argument to back-up the principles of item 1 within ecologies such as those that we now have in the UK and that are essentially artificial ecologies, ecologies within which the species referenced in my items 3 and 4 are both essentially non-native if we talk in terms of ecologies rather than simply geographic areas.

I am still doubtful that the proposition that Eagle Owls as a breeding population within UK ecologies will damage UK ecologies is correct when the same arguments and principles are not applied to other top predators in similar ecological circumstances.

Yes; I know that Eagle Owls and White tailed Eagles are disimilar in many ways but they are still both essentially top predators that are non-native to modern UK ecologies.

Does the argument then stand or fall based upon a purely geographical genetic contention or does it stand or fall based upon a genuine and valid ecological argument couched in terms of modern ecologies as opposed to ecologies that largely no longer exist?

If the only real and proven deciding factor is geographic; based upon the presumption that UK ecologies are entirely natural and unchanged (an obviously erroneous presumption) rather than upon genuinely ecological concerns and the roles that species adopt within essentially artificial environments such those present in the UK; then Black Swan, Mandarin Duck, Rose Ringed Parakeets and the others must logically also go.

Nice one mate:t: :t:

 

[KnockerNorton]

DGRW, what makes you think that WTE's habitat/ecological niche no longer exists in the UK? They were exterminated only around 100 years ago, and many of their habitats (estuaries, coastal areas) and prey species (waders, wildfowl) are essentially unchanged. Added to the fact that they are fairly regular wintering species in e.g. East Anglia, eastern Britain. That's about 'Ecological Restoration', I suppose.

The difference with EO is that they do not winter here, never had a wild breeding population here, have probably not occurred here as anything other than a very rare vagrant (if at all, ever), and they therefore never had a habitat/ecological niche here that is/isn't still present. They are, essentially, alien. WTE are not alien, not even to Suffolk.

 

[DGRW]

They were exterminated only around 100 years ago,

Not in East Anglia, it was very much earlier there as we discussed earlier in (edit the WTE thread. Possibly even as long ago as The Norman Conquest. East Anglia has altered quite a lot since then.

My point is that both species are top predators introduced to modern ecologies, neither of them might be considered native to those modern ecologies but that does not neccessarily dictate that either of them will automatically degrade those ecologies.

I really do appreciate much of what you say Peocile but we're not going to entirely agree on it.

 

[Vernon Lundy]

Any updates on their whereabouts? Some friends want to visit but are reluctant to make the trek (both the drive and the slog!)

 

[KnockerNorton]

Not in East Anglia, it was very much earlier there as we discussed earlier in (edit the WTE thread. Possibly even as long ago as The Norman Conquest. East Anglia has altered quite a lot since then.

My point is that both species are top predators introduced to modern ecologies, neither of them might be considered native to those modern ecologies but that does not neccessarily dictate that either of them will automatically degrade those ecologies.

I really do appreciate much of what you say Peocile but we're not going to entirely agree on it.

but they have always wintered there...in that sense they're similar to Red Kites, except probably even more regular before the RK reintroductions changed the status. I see what you're saying with your WTE analogy too, but I don't think it's a suitable comparison.

 

[Himalaya]

they are back in the news! the thread has been dormant for 4 weeks but live and kicking it shall be. the lancashire evening telegraph ran an article "killer form the skies" on page 3 which says that eagle owls are "believed" to be ruining the effort to boost populations of hen harriers in the ribble valley.

i have it on the website now so here goes:-

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...agle_owls_blamed_for_deaths_of_rare_birds.php

 

[Himalaya]

going off track - the comment section to the article is worth reading.

 

[lewis20126]

And did anyone read the BB paper? Author reckons they should be considered native but evidence since the last ice age seems a bit thin....

a

 

[Himalaya]

whats BB paper? u mean the bblackburn edition?

 

[lewis20126]

British Birds Vol 100: pp481-486. (August 2007)
Photos of old bones that may be eagle owls and stuff like that.

a