Lancs Eagle Owls (1 Viewer)

[JD.1]

I agree with you farnboro john ,instinct takes over ,any escapee soon reverts back to its basic behaviour -that or die

 

[Himalaya]

Predators do eat other predators at times. The Tiger may not eat Leopards regularly but Leopards have a thing for dogs, jackals and are probably more likely than tigers to kill other predators.

Goshawks have been known to kill smaller falcons such as peregrines, kestrels, their smaller cousins the sparrowhawk and buzzards and honey buzzards too. Whilst Golden eagles are not exactly known for preying on other birds of prey.

The goshawk, eagle owl, leopard are not the largest predator in their range. there are larger cats and eagles out there.

I doubt either of these 3 species specifically looks for other predators to eat - if they have young it will be a case of whatever comes first.

With crows it maybe different. Crows are cleverer than other birds and that is why they may kill magpies - they know that magpies are a big threat and thats why they also mob birds of prey. I have seen carrion crows chase after magpies aggressively. I have seen magpies cause a big din when a crow is around.

I suspect the recovery of the rabbit population around the country is the main reason the birds are managing to breed. The Yorkshire pair were certainly taking predominantly rabbits although they took a few small predators such as stoats I believe. I vaguely recall mention of some birds being taken but as at least one was a likely ex-captive, they probably would not recognise birds as potential food for the most part. Incidentally, it is not clear whether some of the preying on raptors and other owls on the continent is at least partly inspired by eliminating competition. Predators do not normally eat any rival predators they kill although Indian tigers sometimes kill and eat leopards. However, the less developed sense of taste in birds means there is no reason to waste prey even if it was killed out of rivalry. Similarly, goshawks will kill and eat sparrowhawks, crows will kill and eat magpies even if it is debatable what inspired the original attack.

 

[Nightranger]

What rubbish, captive Eagle Owls have no more reason to recognise rabbits than chickens. Pretty much all the prey information they need is hard-wired as reactions to movement of something small enough to catch and eat.

John

I think you missed the point. Rabbits are small and abundant and relatively easy to catch compared to birds. What I was saying is that it is common for ex-captive birds not to have what would be considered as a normal prey range. In fact, I could have taken this further and asked why there are not more eagle owls alive and breeding around the UK given the numbers reported missing. The stark fact is that there is no hard-wiring as you put it and the poor suckers die of starvation - if not within a few weeks, certainly when the going become tougher. Admittedly, this point would tend to support the idea that wild-breeding EOs in the UK could be of wild origin but there are no hard and fast rules. The point I was making that rabbits are doing well and the lucky EOs that spot the possibility (have the hard-wiring) just might do well enough to breed. Don't you think it is of any significance that EOs have been reported breeding since the recovery of the rabbit population?

I really do not see conclusive evidence either way for genuinely wild EOs in the UK but IMO, the evidence does not favour the idea - at least, not yet. To support this, I would expect the free-flying EOs in the UK to be taking more bird prey than they are reported to be doing. To be honest, I would zoom over to take a look if I could convince myself there was half a chance they were wild.

 

[Nightranger]

I agree with you farnboro john ,instinct takes over ,any escapee soon reverts back to its basic behaviour -that or die

Indeed! That is actually what I was trying to say but it looks like my general point has been misunderstood. I am just not convinced the breeding EOs in the UK are anything more than coincidental with the recovery of rabbits from mixy. Things are a darn sight easier than they would have been 10 or 20 years ago and this seems a remarkbale coincidence. Genuine EOs from the continent would be welcome and I am sure it will happen for certain one day but we must look at the facts. The Independent Bird Register has a fair list of escapees (the list was no longer on their website last time I looked) each month, so what has changed? Surely the escapee rate has not increased?

 

[Nightranger]

Predators do eat other predators at times. The Tiger may not eat Leopards regularly but Leopards have a thing for dogs, jackals and are probably more likely than tigers to kill other predators.

Goshawks have been known to kill smaller falcons such as peregrines, kestrels, their smaller cousins the sparrowhawk and buzzards and honey buzzards too. Whilst Golden eagles are not exactly known for preying on other birds of prey.

The goshawk, eagle owl, leopard are not the largest predator in their range. there are larger cats and eagles out there.

It is a generally quoted fact (quite probably inaccurate when seriously examined, I grant you) that predators do not eat other predators. However, this would better read mammalian predators do not (generally) eat other mammalian predators. It is thought to be a taste thing but as you (and I) mentioned, there are exceptions. On the other hand, (most) birds do not have such a well developed taste sense so it would make sense for them to utilise a victim that was actually killed as a threat. The leopard - dog example may not be all that it seems because dogs are at best, omnivores and this stil, works if it is being discussed in terms of the taste theory. [Note: I am not all that convinced by this idea but it does seem to work as a generalisation even with the niggly exceptions... ]

I am not sure what the italicised sentence means in the context of your post, BTW. If I understand this correctly (forgive me if I misunderstood), you are saying this kind of thing is more likely or more common in mid-size range predators. I think there is also an agility question here although it is probably better to think of this alongside the points we are discussing rather than trying to think of it as a distinct issue. What I mean is that EOs are agile enough (evidently) to catch BoPs whereas golden eagles probbably aren't.

 

[rob stoff]

It is a generally quoted fact (quite probably inaccurate when seriously examined, I grant you) that predators do not eat other predators. However, this would better read mammalian predators do not (generally) eat other mammalian predators. It is thought to be a taste thing but as you (and I) mentioned, there are exceptions. On the other hand, (most) birds do not have such a well developed taste sense so it would make sense for them to utilise a victim that was actually killed as a threat. The leopard - dog example may not be all that it seems because dogs are at best, omnivores and this stil, works if it is being discussed in terms of the taste theory. [Note: I am not all that convinced by this idea but it does seem to work as a generalisation even with the niggly exceptions... ]

I am not sure what the italicised sentence means in the context of your post, BTW. If I understand this correctly (forgive me if I misunderstood), you are saying this kind of thing is more likely or more common in mid-size range predators. I think there is also an agility question here although it is probably better to think of this alongside the points we are discussing rather than trying to think of it as a distinct issue. What I mean is that EOs are agile enough (evidently) to catch BoPs whereas golden eagles probbably aren't.

and your point is?

Rob

 

[Himalaya]

The day I visited the Dunsop Eagle Owls the female had caught a Red Legged Partridge and devoured it in front of lots of lucky people. The fact/rumour (whatever people want to call it) that 3/4 Hen Harriers were eaten by the Eagle Owls means that they were capable of capturing other birds unless they were unable to fly. Overall the birds must have had a pretty wide prey base.

What is the vision of diurnal birds at night especially buzzards, goshawks, peregrines, corvids, gulls, pheasants, partridges, grouse, curlews which frequent that area of the eagle owl in dunsop?

I think you missed the point. Rabbits are small and abundant and relatively easy to catch compared to birds. What I was saying is that it is common for ex-captive birds not to have what would be considered as a normal prey range. In fact, I could have taken this further and asked why there are not more eagle owls alive and breeding around the UK given the numbers reported missing. The stark fact is that there is no hard-wiring as you put it and the poor suckers die of starvation - if not within a few weeks, certainly when the going become tougher. Admittedly, this point would tend to support the idea that wild-breeding EOs in the UK could be of wild origin but there are no hard and fast rules. The point I was making that rabbits are doing well and the lucky EOs that spot the possibility (have the hard-wiring) just might do well enough to breed. Don't you think it is of any significance that EOs have been reported breeding since the recovery of the rabbit population?

I really do not see conclusive evidence either way for genuinely wild EOs in the UK but IMO, the evidence does not favour the idea - at least, not yet. To support this, I would expect the free-flying EOs in the UK to be taking more bird prey than they are reported to be doing. To be honest, I would zoom over to take a look if I could convince myself there was half a chance they were wild.

 

[Himalaya]

If you Google it you will get some pretty interesting articles/storie3s about Eagle Owls in the UK and it seems there maybe even upto 50 breeding pairs.

I thought rabbits would be harder to catch as they can move fast and dodge if they want too?

I think you missed the point. Rabbits are small and abundant and relatively easy to catch compared to birds. What I was saying is that it is common for ex-captive birds not to have what would be considered as a normal prey range. In fact, I could have taken this further and asked why there are not more eagle owls alive and breeding around the UK given the numbers reported missing. The stark fact is that there is no hard-wiring as you put it and the poor suckers die of starvation - if not within a few weeks, certainly when the going become tougher. Admittedly, this point would tend to support the idea that wild-breeding EOs in the UK could be of wild origin but there are no hard and fast rules. The point I was making that rabbits are doing well and the lucky EOs that spot the possibility (have the hard-wiring) just might do well enough to breed. Don't you think it is of any significance that EOs have been reported breeding since the recovery of the rabbit population?

I really do not see conclusive evidence either way for genuinely wild EOs in the UK but IMO, the evidence does not favour the idea - at least, not yet. To support this, I would expect the free-flying EOs in the UK to be taking more bird prey than they are reported to be doing. To be honest, I would zoom over to take a look if I could convince myself there was half a chance they were wild.

 

[Himalaya]

Leopards over their range are known for taking anything as prey that they can tackle. They will go for antelopes, monkeys, dogs and have been known to kill Cheetahs and striped hyaenas and eat them. If they can kill and capture predators that large they will obviously deal with any smaller predator ie fox, jackal, smaller cats with ease. Lions also kill and eat leopards, cheetahs as im sure do packs of hyaenas and wild dogs will too.

Medium sized predators may have more flexible eating patterns. It appears that certain medioum sized predators ie leopards, goshawks, eagle owls have more of a reputation for feeding onther carnivores than say the larger eagles and larger cats.

Maybe its a question of agilitiy or maybe its a question of habitat. Goshawks and eagle owls may share their habitat with other birds of prey which are smaller. Golden eagles are agile but not agile enough to deal with mobbing Ravens and Crows. Is nt there less birds of preywithin the areas habited by golden eagles too? In the UK you will probably get Peregrines and Buzzards in the same areas as Golden Eagles

It is a generally quoted fact (quite probably inaccurate when seriously examined, I grant you) that predators do not eat other predators. However, this would better read mammalian predators do not (generally) eat other mammalian predators. It is thought to be a taste thing but as you (and I) mentioned, there are exceptions. On the other hand, (most) birds do not have such a well developed taste sense so it would make sense for them to utilise a victim that was actually killed as a threat. The leopard - dog example may not be all that it seems because dogs are at best, omnivores and this stil, works if it is being discussed in terms of the taste theory. [Note: I am not all that convinced by this idea but it does seem to work as a generalisation even with the niggly exceptions... ]

I am not sure what the italicised sentence means in the context of your post, BTW. If I understand this correctly (forgive me if I misunderstood), you are saying this kind of thing is more likely or more common in mid-size range predators. I think there is also an agility question here although it is probably better to think of this alongside the points we are discussing rather than trying to think of it as a distinct issue. What I mean is that EOs are agile enough (evidently) to catch BoPs whereas golden eagles probbably aren't.

 

[Farnboro John]

I think you missed the point. Rabbits are small and abundant and relatively easy to catch compared to birds. What I was saying is that it is common for ex-captive birds not to have what would be considered as a normal prey range. In fact, I could have taken this further and asked why there are not more eagle owls alive and breeding around the UK given the numbers reported missing. The stark fact is that there is no hard-wiring as you put it and the poor suckers die of starvation - if not within a few weeks, certainly when the going become tougher. Admittedly, this point would tend to support the idea that wild-breeding EOs in the UK could be of wild origin but there are no hard and fast rules. The point I was making that rabbits are doing well and the lucky EOs that spot the possibility (have the hard-wiring) just might do well enough to breed. Don't you think it is of any significance that EOs have been reported breeding since the recovery of the rabbit population?

I really do not see conclusive evidence either way for genuinely wild EOs in the UK but IMO, the evidence does not favour the idea - at least, not yet. To support this, I would expect the free-flying EOs in the UK to be taking more bird prey than they are reported to be doing. To be honest, I would zoom over to take a look if I could convince myself there was half a chance they were wild.

I'm not sure what you mean about recovery of the Rabbit population. Myxomatosis still blows through areas of the UK from time to time - in the SE Rabbits were at plague proportions from late 2006 through to about July 2007 and then I kid you not they all but vanished over about six weeks. Numbers are only now coming back up to "normal" levels.

I would be interested to hear your evidence for the assertion that Rabbits are easier to catch than birds. The specialisation of Sparrowhawks, Merlins and Peregrines suggests not.

John

 

[Nightranger]

I'm not sure what you mean about recovery of the Rabbit population. Myxomatosis still blows through areas of the UK from time to time - in the SE Rabbits were at plague proportions from late 2006 through to about July 2007 and then I kid you not they all but vanished over about six weeks. Numbers are only now coming back up to "normal" levels.

Indeed, but the general numbers are much higher than they were even as recently as a decade ago. True enough, there were areas were rabbits were always present bu equally there were areas where rabbits completely disappeared. I know what you mean about the late summer crash because I saw it for myself. Having said that, I am not sure if Myxy was the complete explanation given the awful weather last summer. Anyway, what I mean is, you would have been hard pressed to see good numbers of rabbits in Lancashire a decade ago and I suspect this would have been true for other places around the country.

I would be interested to hear your evidence for the assertion that Rabbits are easier to catch than birds. The specialisation of Sparrowhawks, Merlins and Peregrines suggests not.

John

I don't know it for certain. I just suspect that the owls would go for whatever is commonest around them. It would not matter if they missed a few times providing there were enough opportunities in the first place. I suppose we should not forget that the Roy Dennis Natural World programme clearly asserted that the Yorkshire pair were living predominantly off rabbits. Given the comments on this thread, it would be interesting to know if the same results are noted at all EO nests.

 

[Nightranger]

and your point is?

Rob

Why should you think there is a point to be made? Is it really impossible to have just a discussion on BF? There maybe quite a few people here who have egos big enough to be only satisfied by winning an argument but I am not one of them. I really do not see the point of argument for argument's sake so please join the discussion or leave out the antagonistic posts.

 

[Nightranger]

The day I visited the Dunsop Eagle Owls the female had caught a Red Legged Partridge and devoured it in front of lots of lucky people. The fact/rumour (whatever people want to call it) that 3/4 Hen Harriers were eaten by the Eagle Owls means that they were capable of capturing other birds unless they were unable to fly. Overall the birds must have had a pretty wide prey base.

What is the vision of diurnal birds at night especially buzzards, goshawks, peregrines, corvids, gulls, pheasants, partridges, grouse, curlews which frequent that area of the eagle owl in dunsop?

I refer again to the Roy Dennis Natural World programme. I don't doubt that like all predators, the EOs will take other prey but that is not the same as saying they subsist on everything - fortunately for hen harriers.

I am not sure I understand the second paragraph because from what I can gather the UK EOs are mainly diurnal anyway. I don't know if I misread the Natural World programme but I got the impression that European EOs were also significantly diurnal too although this may only have been an illusion of the way the programme was presented. Had I not seen this programme, I would have assumed they were mostly nocturnal.

If you Google it you will get some pretty interesting articles/storie3s about Eagle Owls in the UK and it seems there maybe even upto 50 breeding pairs.

I thought rabbits would be harder to catch as they can move fast and dodge if they want too?

There are always a lot of rumours when it comes to large BOPs but I would tend to think that 50 is a massive over-estimate. I just don't think you could keep that number secret in terms of there being information about where they exist. there were persistent rumours of a 'second' golden eagle pair in the Lakes but someone working on the project for the RSPB tells me there has only ever been one pair although lowland Scottish birds do genuinely visit the area from time to time. (Pity any female is likely to miss the resident male if he is out on his range).

See my post in reply to Farnboro John. It is a numbers issue. It does not matter if the failure rate is high providing the opportunity rate is also high. At least some of the time, the EOs will not have to move far to find food either. This would be particularly true in spring and early summer when baby rabbits are numerous and often a little unwary or make bad decisions.

 

[Nightranger]

Leopards over their range are known for taking anything as prey that they can tackle. They will go for antelopes, monkeys, dogs and have been known to kill Cheetahs and striped hyaenas and eat them. If they can kill and capture predators that large they will obviously deal with any smaller predator ie fox, jackal, smaller cats with ease. Lions also kill and eat leopards, cheetahs as im sure do packs of hyaenas and wild dogs will too.

I am interested in the point about lions. Is there evidence that they eat other predators? I understood they killed other predators but did not eat them. As I said, I am not sure I can go for the idea of taste aversion but it would make sense when talking about birds.

Medium sized predators may have more flexible eating patterns. It appears that certain medioum sized predators ie leopards, goshawks, eagle owls have more of a reputation for feeding onther carnivores than say the larger eagles and larger cats.

Thanks, nothing more to add to this. I just was not sure what you were trying to say.

Maybe its a question of agilitiy or maybe its a question of habitat. Goshawks and eagle owls may share their habitat with other birds of prey which are smaller. Golden eagles are agile but not agile enough to deal with mobbing Ravens and Crows. Is nt there less birds of preywithin the areas habited by golden eagles too? In the UK you will probably get Peregrines and Buzzards in the same areas as Golden Eagles

It is possible you are right on this one although my instincts tell me the point is suspiciously simplistic (no offence intended). Golden eagles do well on a diet of blue hares but they are even known to scare red deer into falling off cliffs. I suspect there are enough buzzards in the same range but I am not aware of golden eagles preying on or eliminating buzzards as rivals. Does anyone know if white-tailed sea eagles have a record of taking other BoPs?

 

[rob stoff]

Why should you think there is a point to be made? Is it really impossible to have just a discussion on BF? There maybe quite a few people here who have egos big enough to be only satisfied by winning an argument but I am not one of them. I really do not see the point of argument for argument's sake so please join the discussion or leave out the antagonistic posts.

start a new thread then, this has next to nothing to do with eagle owls

Rob

 

[Nightranger]

start a new thread then, this has next to nothing to do with eagle owls

Rob

Neither have your comments.

 

[Farnboro John]

I am interested in the point about lions. Is there evidence that they eat other predators? I understood they killed other predators but did not eat them. As I said, I am not sure I can go for the idea of taste aversion but it would make sense when talking about birds.



Thanks, nothing more to add to this. I just was not sure what you were trying to say.



It is possible you are right on this one although my instincts tell me the point is suspiciously simplistic (no offence intended). Golden eagles do well on a diet of blue hares but they are even known to scare red deer into falling off cliffs. I suspect there are enough buzzards in the same range but I am not aware of golden eagles preying on or eliminating buzzards as rivals. Does anyone know if white-tailed sea eagles have a record of taking other BoPs?

The Lake District Golden Eagles had a record of eliminating Ravens within their valley (the male on his own seems not able to do this and gets mobbed instead.) I have often seen them drive encroaching Buzzards away, I watched one Buzzard seemingly only escape a very aggressive move from the female eagle by hiding in cloud and reappearing outside the valley.

I have now also recalled that past studies have shown Tawny Owls to dispose of Long-eared Owls in their home range. (Speaking of Long-ears, an early Eighties record of a Gyrfalcon on an oil rig noted it stooping on a Long-eared Owl, ripping the wings off it and eating it.)

I would not be surprised to discover that large BOP habitually reduce competition for food on an opportunistic basis. Or that they eat the results.

John

 

[Himalaya]

The RSPB wardens say that the Lakes Eagle does not tolerate any large bird in his small home range ie Buzzards, Ravens, Peregrines. The male does drive them out but the birds do occasionally end up in the valley and they fight. I think the Buzzard would be easiest for the Eagle to take out. From what one of the RSPB wardens said the male is not much of a hunter and i doubt he would have hunted any of the Buzzards or Ravens or eliminated them. Im basing that on what the RSPB wardens said.

The Lake District Golden Eagles had a record of eliminating Ravens within their valley (the male on his own seems not able to do this and gets mobbed instead.) I have often seen them drive encroaching Buzzards away, I watched one Buzzard seemingly only escape a very aggressive move from the female eagle by hiding in cloud and reappearing outside the valley.

I have now also recalled that past studies have shown Tawny Owls to dispose of Long-eared Owls in their home range. (Speaking of Long-ears, an early Eighties record of a Gyrfalcon on an oil rig noted it stooping on a Long-eared Owl, ripping the wings off it and eating it.)

I would not be surprised to discover that large BOP habitually reduce competition for food on an opportunistic basis. Or that they eat the results.

John

 

[Himalaya]

Is nt there more day based activity if the owls have chicks? From what is known about eagle owls they are pretty hard to detect for their large size. This dunsop pair appearsto have been around for a few years.

I refer again to the Roy Dennis Natural World programme. I don't doubt that like all predators, the EOs will take other prey but that is not the same as saying they subsist on everything - fortunately for hen harriers.

I am not sure I understand the second paragraph because from what I can gather the UK EOs are mainly diurnal anyway. I don't know if I misread the Natural World programme but I got the impression that European EOs were also significantly diurnal too although this may only have been an illusion of the way the programme was presented. Had I not seen this programme, I would have assumed they were mostly nocturnal.



There are always a lot of rumours when it comes to large BOPs but I would tend to think that 50 is a massive over-estimate. I just don't think you could keep that number secret in terms of there being information about where they exist. there were persistent rumours of a 'second' golden eagle pair in the Lakes but someone working on the project for the RSPB tells me there has only ever been one pair although lowland Scottish birds do genuinely visit the area from time to time. (Pity any female is likely to miss the resident male if he is out on his range).

See my post in reply to Farnboro John. It is a numbers issue. It does not matter if the failure rate is high providing the opportunity rate is also high. At least some of the time, the EOs will not have to move far to find food either. This would be particularly true in spring and early summer when baby rabbits are numerous and often a little unwary or make bad decisions.

 

[KnockerNorton]

It is a generally quoted fact (quite probably inaccurate when seriously examined, I grant you) that predators do not eat other predators. However, this would better read mammalian predators do not (generally) eat other mammalian predators.

what utter rubbish. Weasels are taken by any mammalian predator that can catch them (e.g. Wildcats, Pine Martens). Tigers habitually eat leopards. Wolves habitually eat (and limit the numbers of) foxes. Humans from Africa to China eat all manner of predators.