Lancs Eagle Owls (1 Viewer)

[Brian Stone]

:clap::clap:

I'm not twisting. Roy Dennis argument (and yours - are you he?!) seems to be that just because there is a theoretical chance that even a single EO may have reached the UK, that means that the feral population should be treated as if they were a native species. This is like saying that we should treat the Edinburgh Zoo free-flying Night Herons as if they were a native breeding species. And is is beside the point when the BOU has found no evidence that EO has EVER been here as a vagrant. they are nothing if not thorough.

It's romantic codswallop. I don't believe in basing policy on hunches, I believe in assessing the evidence. And there is no good hard evidence that they're native (2 post glacial bones from human settlements mean little - we have more post-glacial lion remains than that from Tower of London moat), and a very large yawning chasm in the British archaeological record that puts them in the same bracket as unicorns and yetis.

 

[Amarillo]

I'm not twisting. Roy Dennis argument (and yours - are you he?!) seems to be that just because there is a theoretical chance that even a single EO may have reached the UK, that means that the feral population should be treated as if they were a native species. This is like saying that we should treat the Edinburgh Zoo free-flying Night Herons as if they were a native breeding species. And is is beside the point when the BOU has found no evidence that EO has EVER been here as a vagrant. they are nothing if not thorough.

It's romantic codswallop. I don't believe in basing policy on hunches, I believe in assessing the evidence. And there is no good hard evidence that they're native (2 post glacial bones from human settlements mean little - we have more post-glacial lion remains than that from Tower of London moat), and a very large yawning chasm in the British archaeological record that puts them in the same bracket as unicorns and yetis.

No I'm not him. My own viewpoint would actually be somewhere between yours and his. I've only argued with you so much because of your insistance that there is no grey area whatsoever with eagle owls - I may be a bit of a "romantic" but I also take on board a lot of what you say - when you're not trying to make out that eagle owls in Britain are as unlikely as unicorns and yetis

 

[rob stoff]

No I'm not him. My own viewpoint would actually be somewhere between yours and his. I've only argued with you so much because of your insistance that there is no grey area whatsoever with eagle owls - I may be a bit of a "romantic" but I also take on board a lot of what you say - when you're not trying to make out that eagle owls in Britain are as unlikely as unicorns and yetis

its not a question of likelihood but one of evidence. Speculation deals with the grey areas, the facts are black and white, there is no evidence whatsoever that Eagle Owls have been a native British species since the last glaciation and no strong indications that genuine vagrants have occurred.

Rob

 

[KnockerNorton]

its not a question of likelihood but one of evidence. Speculation deals with the grey areas, the facts are black and white, there is no evidence whatsoever that Eagle Owls have been a native British species since the last glaciation and no strong indications that genuine vagrants have occurred.

Rob

That's my point exactly, Amarillo. There is no grey area regarding the evidence (for and against) on the table. It is what it is, and at present it is giving a strong message. It is also quite extensive, so it's not as if we're clueless. We can make a fairly good call based on the evidence we have.

The problem with all this is many that people have a vested personal interest because they personally want it to be true, no matter what the current evidence, they hang it all on possibilities. To get a more objective view, do you think the current evidence would convince a jury that wild birds have anything to do with eagle owls currently nesting in Britain? No chance. The closest thing we have to a jury is the BOU panel and the RSPB as a collective opinion, and they both say "no". Only individual one-man magistrates like Roy Dennis have a different opinion.

 

[Apodemus]

This is a side issue, which may have been discussed elsewhere. If, as seems clear, the Eagle owls can not be regarded as native by any stretch of the imagination, and the decision is taken to kill them all, what sort of message does this send to the gamekeeping fraternity who also have their 'little list'? I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but the message and publicity would have to be handled very carefully. I can just imagine their "one rule for us and one rule for them" reaction.

 

[Nightranger]

Too expensive, there's 60 million of them. There are, however, only a few hundred Eagle owls, so we should allow them the same protection as the rabbits (zero) and get rid of them while we still can.

Apart from the idea of 'only a few hundred' I am in complete agreement with the general tone of this post. However, I refer to what I mentioned earlier about the merits of possible recapture as opposed to culling. I think the expense question is not without relevance here because the bullet is often seen as cheaper in man-power than the trap. I tend to think that Roy Dennis was not accurately portrayed in the Natural World programme BTW but I guess he is stuck with the impression now.

It amazes me that DEFRA were supposed to have tightened up the regulations on introduced species in March 2005 yet we are still debating various merits more than three years later. In other words, absolutely nothing has been done.

 

[Nightranger]

This is a side issue, which may have been discussed elsewhere. If, as seems clear, the Eagle owls can not be regarded as native by any stretch of the imagination, and the decision is taken to kill them all, what sort of message does this send to the gamekeeping fraternity who also have their 'little list'? I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but the message and publicity would have to be handled very carefully. I can just imagine their "one rule for us and one rule for them" reaction.

I am not sure it means 'kill them all' but surely the watch word should be 'doing nothing is not an option'.

 

[Apodemus]

Is trapping feasible? What happens then - do they end up in captivity or being released into alien territory on the continent, already inhabited by resident owls?
Genuine questions, because I don't know.

 

[Amarillo]

The closest thing we have to a jury is the BOU panel and the RSPB as a collective opinion, and they both say "no". Only individual one-man magistrates like Roy Dennis have a different opinion.

They say there is no evidence to suggest they are native, they don't dismiss the possibility entirely, whereas you do.

Consequently neither organisation calls for an immediate cull, whereas you do.

My position is in line with the authorities.

 

[rob stoff]

They say there is no evidence to suggest they are native, they don't dismiss the possibility entirely, whereas you do.

Consequently neither organisation calls for an immediate cull, whereas you do.

My position is in line with the authorities.

you seem to be suggesting that some lingering doubt about origins is at the root of the decision not to undertake a cull, any evidence to back that up or are you just projecting your own feelings?

Rob

 

[KnockerNorton]

They say there is no evidence to suggest they are native, they don't dismiss the possibility entirely, whereas you do.

Consequently neither organisation calls for an immediate cull, whereas you do.

My position is in line with the authorities.

You make a lot of statements there, without any back up at all. Can you point to these statements from 'authorities'? Do they say "we do not support a cull" or do they actually not mention 'what happens next'? Because it is not in the BOU's remit to offer suggestions on policy, and the RSPB is sitting on the fence due to its membership being full of people who got uppity about the Ruddy Duck.

But again, and I'm sick of pointing this out to you, there is a difference between possibility and probability. Can you please stop conflating them? The RSPB has not issued a statement denying the possibility that there are breeding Ivory-billed Woodpeckers in the New Forest. But ask them about the probability....

 

[KnockerNorton]

It amazes me that DEFRA were supposed to have tightened up the regulations on introduced species in March 2005 yet we are still debating various merits more than three years later. In other words, absolutely nothing has been done.

Defra can say what they like, there's still no bugger to enforce it.

re what to do with them, trapping would be inhumane for wild-bred birds. Killing them is the only way, although i suspect that if it ever gets to culling then egg-pricking will be the main method. A fudge, in other words. Nobody has the stomach for it, as they're too fearful of reaction from the public. We're well past the days of the Coypu now, and everyone got their fingers burned after the Ruddy Duck fiasco.

 

[Amarillo]

You make a lot of statements there, without any back up at all. Can you point to these statements from 'authorities'? Do they say "we do not support a cull" or do they actually not mention 'what happens next'? Because it is not in the BOU's remit to offer suggestions on policy, and the RSPB is sitting on the fence due to its membership being full of people who got uppity about the Ruddy Duck.

But again, and I'm sick of pointing this out to you, there is a difference between possibility and probability. Can you please stop conflating them? The RSPB has not issued a statement denying the possibility that there are breeding Ivory-billed Woodpeckers in the New Forest. But ask them about the probability....

As far as I know both organisations want to see the birds monitored first and support a cull only if shown to be having an impact. Yes I realise that sentimentality of members is an issue for the RSPB and that may influence them. However, I'm only assuming here, but don't you think they would be calling for immediate action if say Harpy Eagles became established here? The RSPB quotes the likelihood of future natural colonisation in its policy statement, and there is little doubt in my mind that this as well as the EO being part of the wider European ecosystem and having possibly been native in the past has a bearing on their policy.

I understand the difference between possibility and probability. It seems you don't understand degrees of probability if you consider EO's in Britain as having a similar probability to Ivory Bills in the New Forest!

 

[Nightranger]

Defra can say what they like, there's still no bugger to enforce it.

re what to do with them, trapping would be inhumane for wild-bred birds. Killing them is the only way, although i suspect that if it ever gets to culling then egg-pricking will be the main method. A fudge, in other words. Nobody has the stomach for it, as they're too fearful of reaction from the public. We're well past the days of the Coypu now, and everyone got their fingers burned after the Ruddy Duck fiasco.

Unfortunately, I think you are right. The strange thing I found when talking to local birders was that they would not think twice about escaped mink being killed off but when it comes to something like ruddy ducks...

 

[Nightranger]

...and the RSPB is sitting on the fence due to its membership being full of people who got uppity about the Ruddy Duck. ....

Is it sitting on the fence or simply that the waters have been so muddied that it would pay to be right in the first place? I would guess that quite a lot was learned over ruddy ducks and I do not see the RSPB pulling away from the subject. It was always going to be down to DEFRA's birdy in getting rid of the ducks at some point but that did not seem to stop the RSPB keeping the pressure on. Despite ruddy ducks being contentious in the extreme, a friend within the society tells me the actual resignations amounted to less than 1% even though numbers were higher than for other controversial issues. I am sure this does not take into account the members that did not resign but still registered their disapproval. What differed with ruddy ducks was that Animal Aid got hold of it and ran an incredibly efficient campaign. It is not without significance that a similar campaign over rats on Lundy failed to elicit much interest (hmm, I wonder why?). In conclusion, I doubt the RSPB are sitting on the fence as such but I applaud the fact that they are making sure the facts are correct. If there is one organisation that seems to be sitting on the fence (and I may be wrong in my impression) it is the Hawk & Owl Trust.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Is it sitting on the fence or simply that the waters have been so muddied that it would pay to be right in the first place? I would guess that quite a lot was learned over ruddy ducks and I do not see the RSPB pulling away from the subject. It was always going to be down to DEFRA's birdy in getting rid of the ducks at some point but that did not seem to stop the RSPB keeping the pressure on. Despite ruddy ducks being contentious in the extreme, a friend within the society tells me the actual resignations amounted to less than 1% even though numbers were higher than for other controversial issues. I am sure this does not take into account the members that did not resign but still registered their disapproval. What differed with ruddy ducks was that Animal Aid got hold of it and ran an incredibly efficient campaign. It is not without significance that a similar campaign over rats on Lundy failed to elicit much interest (hmm, I wonder why?). In conclusion, I doubt the RSPB are sitting on the fence as such but I applaud the fact that they are making sure the facts are correct. If there is one organisation that seems to be sitting on the fence (and I may be wrong in my impression) it is the Hawk & Owl Trust.

It should be borne in mind though that the RSPB is not an authority on whether EO are native or not, they are wholly reliant on what other people tell them, and they assess the evidence just like the rest of us. They are not really capable of anything greater than a literature review - they're not going to undertake their own archaeological investigation. In this case, I think they are probably taking their cue from the BOU, who have consulted the widest and have the most skills in this area (assessing the credibility of evidence for a birds origin etc). Amarillo, I don't think the BOU has actually said what they 'want' to happen - it's not really their style. They just say what they think/know.

RSPB also had a bloody nose (with SNH) over the hedgehog thing. I think they're pretty cautious about getting into another 'kill em all!' campaign. RSPB are fairly political these days, which affects what they say and don't say. they are a pressure group after all, like the Hawk and Owl trust.

 

[asmoak]

need owl nest help

This is my first time in any forum so I hope I'm doing this correctly. Here's my situation if anyone can help. My family owns about 500 acres in South Carolina and I'm interested in constructing some owl nest on our property. I've found instructions for building and installing houses but I don't want to mess up and put up too many houses or put them too close together. I've read that many owls are very territorial so I want to avoid conflicts. Any help or suggested research reading would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Ann

 

[birdboybowley]

Unfortunately, I think you are right. The strange thing I found when talking to local birders was that they would not think twice about escaped mink being killed off but when it comes to something like ruddy ducks...

I guess that's because ruddies don't kill the other waterbirds they live with...!

 

[rob stoff]

I guess that's because ruddies don't kill the other waterbirds they live with...!

extinction of W-h Duck through hybridisation!?

Rob

 

[birdboybowley]

Not proven at all Rob! Spoke with Tom Gullick at length on this subject and his opinion was that it just wasn't true - he reckoned he'd seen 2 possible hybrids in the past 25yrs....the old argument there still stands that why shoot them here, if they do migrate to Spain then shoot them there!