Large Gull from the North Coast of Australia (1 Viewer)

[Dimitris]

Hello folks,

During the last few days a large Gull sp. has been discovered in the rubbish tip of Broome WA.

Pictures here

Currently it is thought to belong to the fuscus-heuglini 'group', but the jury is still out on what it is.

Any opinions are appreciated.

Dimitris.

 

[Steve Arlow]

Some of the images tend to show little contrast between the primaries and the upper-parts whilst some show more contrast.

I don't believe this bird is a fuscus (Baltic Gull) but may be an intermedius/graellsii Lesser Black-backed Gull but structurally leaning a little more towards Heuglins Gull which seem to be the more likely candidate for location. The very white headed appearance and not to 'grey' above would seem to illiminate 'tamyrensis'.

images has so far only been viewed on my iphone and not on a large monitor so look forward to other comments on this bird

 

[Dimitris]

Thanks Steve,

The bird certainly is blackish on top which should eliminate the paler taxa.

Than there's also the possibility of a Kelp Gull, but this bird appears to be too slight to be that...

JanJ; Lou where are you guys?

D.

 

[njlarsen]

Look at these two and notice especially how strong the bill is: I don't think your gull is Kelp and the elongated body shape would fit with for example LBBG.

Niels

Edit: http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=347506

 

[JANJ]

Interesting gull. Kelp gull would be out of the question on features visible. While looking a bit to dark for heuglini and perhaps better for intermedius on upperparts tone - heuglini would be a better mord likely candidate for the location. When I put this on Facebook Yoav Perlman and Ronald Klein and myself suggested heuglini while Ruud Altenburg suggesteda possible fuscus. A few fuscus can show a darker eye.

http://www.facebook.com/jan.jorgensen.90/posts/370339083064231?ref=notif&notif_t=like

JanJ

 

[Jeff Davies]

G'day JanJ, can you provide more detail on "A few fuscus can show a darker eye" photgraphs anywhere? Can you also comment on the dark marks in the under-primary coverts, what age would you guess.

Cheers jeff Davies.

 

[Jeff Davies]

I forgot to mention that we already have a previous genuine record of fuscus from july 2005 from Broome same location as this bird in question. I agree heuglin's is a good possibility to reach Australia and we have been expecting it for a while, there is a record from Timor October 2008 which is close. Baltic is the longer distance migrant so all it has to do is head down the wrong side of the Indian Ocean, a European Roller was recorded on Cocos Island recently, another longer distance migrant into Africa on the wrong side of the indian ocean. So both Gulls are both possibles.

cheers Jeff Davies.

 

[JANJ]

Hi Jeff!
Darkish iris would be a rare thing in fuscus but it does occur - as in European Herring gull etc. Likewise, heuglini with a pale iris would not be a rare thing. I think it´s an adult bird on bill pattern. The primary coverts on the upperwing seems to lack blakish markings in some pic while in others there seems to be som blackish at the tips of a few outer primary coverts. Check the link provided by Ruud Altenburg in the FB ling I provided above. BTW here it is:

http://gull-research.org/papers/papers4/SEABIRD 24 - 04 Dutch Gulls.pdf

And a piece on upperwing primary coverts in LBBG:

http://www.gull-research.org/prims/index.htm

Worth while to check around here:

http://www.gull-research.org/

Cheers Jeff

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

hi dimi, jeff, jan,

what a nice find on the other side of the globe! that said i strongly favour baltic gull over heuglini. it was my first impression and it still is, after having serious doubts. some things appear to point more towards heuglini, like the somewhat snouty look (longish bill), well pigmented iris, longish legs and p9 mirror, all this in combination! but as jan pointed out, some fuscus can show a dark iris. like in all LWHG taxons there is considerable variation in iris pigmentation. i can't find any reference on percentage in fuscus, but it is not at all common. also, only about 1 in 9-10 birds has a p9 mirror (acc. to olsen's gull bible)

so why do i still think it is a baltic gull?
1. i think it is much too dark mantled for a heuglin's gull (check e.g. all pics on gull-research of adult heuglini - can't even think why taimyrensis has been into the discussion)
2. head and bill shape (making the somewhat typical "jizz") perfectly fits baltic (much better than e.g. an intermedius) - triangular or, let's say pear shaped head, bill with elegant curve and, while on first view a bit on the long side for fuscus, it certainly fits a strong male baltic!
3. no ventral white tongues in primaries, a feature that most heuglini shares with the more eastern, cachinnans-like taxons (barabensis etc.) - but sometimes lacks it also.
in addition to avi's and amir's pics of heuglini on gull-research: http://gull-research.org/heuglini/05cyjan.html see also chris' pics from UAE and note how pale mantled they are: http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot.de/2009/02/heuglinis-gulls-in-united-arab-emirates.html

while it is hard to exclude an intermedius, this taxon is not common even in the eastern mediterranean and is the least far migrant. edit: waitaminute: intermedius usually doesn't suspend moult as in this bird. exceptionally it has been observed in graellsii and i guess the same thing probably should be valid for intermedius (but haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, yet). but in a vagrant context, moult can get mixed up...

female kelp gull is out for me on structure, esp. bill and head shape, leg colour and arrested moult.

it has been said that it doesn't show the brownish tingue of baltic, but i can well see it in some older greater coverts (esp. primary coverts) and in the earlier moulted p1 and p2. most of its plumage however is rel. fresh, so this is why it looks cold dark greyish. note how pale and cold grey this fuscus looks in sunlight: http://www.israel.gull-research.org...Blue LL AE4F8561 Ashdod sea shore 25.3.11.jpg, and then in direct comparison to heuglini (left) and armenicus (middle): http://www.israel.gull-research.org...ni Gull AE4F8574 Ashdod sea shore 25.3.11.jpg
i wouldn't bother about the darkish underwing covert tips, the bird should be an (old) adult since a younger one (3/4cy) would not likely have a p9 mirror and a clean yellow bill. it just adds to the other oddities of this bird. head striation can be absent due to bleaching under tropical conditions and/or early prealternate moult. so, while it's sort of a tricky bird and i can't be 100% sure, my strong feeling is that this is a male larus fuscus fuscus.

cheers,

 

[Jeff Davies]

Thanks for your comments everyone, you have confirmed what is probably the majority opinion here in Australia but we really needed some experienced input and this has been provided. It's always a bit disturbing when a bird turns up in an exceptional location in less than typical appearance.

Cheers Jeff Davies.

 

[Dimitris]

So the consensus seems to be fuscus fuscus?

It's been a very interesting discussion, thank you all.

D.

 

[John_WA]

So the consensus seems to be fuscus fuscus?

It's been a very interesting discussion, thank you all.

D.

I see two votes for Heuglin's and one for Baltic, or am I missing something?

 

[KGS]

I don't think I ever saw a fuscus fuscus with this marked contrast between black tip and greyer inner parts of primaries in Stockholm where this taxom breeds commonly.

 

[JANJ]

Firstly, as many birders would know, it´s very difficult to judge upperparts tone in gulls from pic, in not so few cases, impossible! So, if the upperpart tone in the subject gull is fairly correct (it varies between pic), it doe´s seem to dark för heuglini, regardles of range. As KGS mention such contrast between outer and inner primaries is not what birders would expect in Baltic, I´ve seen just one adult from Oct - Öland Southeast Sweden, which showed a slightly more contrast than usual, also depending which angle it was observed in contrast However, not as obvious as in this one, if now correct:http://www.israel.gull-research.org/fuscus5cy/5cyfebr16.html.
I think it´s between intermedius/fuscus fuscus, with a lean towards fuscus, as suggested by Ruud in the facebook link I provided above. Also check the article - which is provided in the same thread (#8)

This is mearly some speculations from an WEurope point of view, in which case it would have been fairly easier. LBBG intermedius contra nom. fuscus can now and then be a tricky business.

JanJ

JanJ

 

[MJB]

Firstly, as many birders would know, it´s very difficult to judge upperparts tone in gulls from pic, in not so few cases, impossible! So, if the upperpart tone in the subject gull is fairly correct (it varies between pic), it does seem to dark för heuglini, regardles of range. As KGS mention such contrast between outer and inner primaries is not what birders would expect in Baltic, I´ve seen just one adult from Oct - Öland Southeast Sweden, which showed a slightly more contrast than usual, also depending which angle it was observed in contrast However, not as obvious as in this one, if now correct:http://www.israel.gull-research.org/fuscus5cy/5cyfebr16.html.
I think it´s between intermedius/fuscus fuscus, with a lean towards fuscus, as suggested by Ruud in the facebook link I provided above. Also check the article - which is provided in the same thread (#8) This is merely some speculation from an WEurope point of view, in which case it would have been fairly easier. LBBG intermedius contra nom. fuscus can now and then be a tricky business. JanJ

JanJ,
Is a dark barabensis (or an intermediate with another taxon) entirely ruled out? My question doesn't come from my knowledge, rather my lack of it!
MJB

 

[lou salomon]

barabensis is even paler than heuglini, so this can be easily ruled out. also, barabensis usually has black down to at least p4. the discussed "contrast" between black primary tips and upperwing is really small compared to paler taxons.

KGS: i've been watching fuscus in stockholm as well as in gotland carefully - and indeed in the field there appears hardly any contrast between tips and mantle, but if you look at good photos of baltic gull usually you will discern the black pattern slightly contrasting to the paler inner webs of inner primaries, e.g. here:
http://www.israel.gull-research.org...ing C3N5 White LL AE4F4719 Ashdod 26.2.11.jpg
http://www.israel.gull-research.org...ing C5KC White LL AE4F4882 Ashdod 26.2.11.jpg
http://www.israel.gull-research.org...ing CAPR White LL AE4F4635 Ashdod 26.2.11.jpg (an example with p9 mirror...)

and, to repeat myself: it has no underwing pale tongues on p10.

but of course i'm not saying it's definitely a baltic gull.
what's worrying is the combination of a large mirrors and a darkish iris. so, on balance i'd rather favour a very dark heuglini over intermedius, also on structure.

this intermedius/graellsii/heuiglini labelled bird from finland is very similar to male in broom: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hytpe/A_7.jpg

 

[Jeff Davies]

Hello again, I got a bit side tracked over the last couple of days and didn't notice the most recent comments.
This bird was actually photographed on two separate occasions, the first lot didn't present a fully side on shot and the tone was extremely difficult to judge, it looked paler than it actually was and my innitial impression was Heuglin's, it wasn't a difficult decision to make considering how the bird was innitially presented. But then the second lot of images were taken and the true tone of this bird was revealed unambiguously, seemingly much to dark for heuglini. My understanding is that these two taxon don't interbreed, so I went straight to the Israel Gull Research site I already had bookmarked and consequently picked up on the obvious black wing pattern on some known individuals banded from fuscus breeding locations as discussed by Lou, so I switched to thinking fuscus. But it wasn't an easy switch considering the number of annomolies all in the one individual, however I eventually came to fuscus from a heuglini beginning.
I'm not sure we can be certain how big the P9 mirrors are on this bird Lou, they are real because the hole is there from the quicker wearing white spot and there is a trace of white left as definite evidence but we can't assume the white window was as large as the residual hole where the feather veins are missing. Lou the bird you have suggested is a darkerer possible heuglini is greyer than the Broome idividual and i would suggest OK for that taxon, are there photos from the breeding locations or collected specimens from same presenting as dark as the Broome bird, I can't find any photo evidence for heuglini ever being that dark. I do agree the percieved structure doesn't scream out fuscus, but the longest Ps are very worn and Broome is excessively hot and humid this time of year which may contribute to the sleeked out appearance which may in turn create a longer legged and billed apearance. Just throwing ideas up in the air here.

Cheers Jeff.