Large gull ID, East Midlands UK (1 Viewer)

[neutrino]

Seen at the end of March 2022 at a local nature reserve.
Initially interested due to darker mantle, I would appreciate any opinions on this bird (Argentatus or michahellis?). Clean headed, the covert markings were black wedges in the field, with the bird showing a pale clean underwing. No apparent mirror on P10, with a distinct black band across P5, the bird in flight had an clean adult looking mantle with the appearance of dark black outer primaries. P10-P6 had small white (worn) tips. Legs appeared pale and washed out with a hint of yellow.

I keep returning to this bird, intrigued by the id and ageing of this large gull. Is this argentatus or michahellis and potentially aged as a mature 2nd cycle bird or early 3rd cycle? Any guidance and advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,
interesting bird. Thanks for sharing (and for the expert to comment and help us).
I would expect such an mature looking Gull to show a visible deep red eye-ring and a brighter bill in a YLG

Further thoughts:

• it appears to be a quite long legged bird in picture 6
• I agree with you, it has quite extensive black in the primaries for a HG (but within variation)
• It has much white in the immature-type tertials for a YLG (right or wrong? I hope for more comments. Thanks). And it has replaced at least one (more?) to an adult type one.
• with much whishfull thinking, I see a narrow bill. Does this indicate Caspian Gull influnce? No, I dont think so. But I hope for expert comments, if this is an hybrid. Thanks.

Does this mean its a 3 cycle Herring Gull for me? No, its a quest for more comments. Thanks!

 

[Keeplooking]

It is a interesting bird.
HGs can have pale yellow legs normally from the more northern /eastern areas indicating HG tatus, but this bird has the round head of HG tues or is it a small fem HG tatus?
Recently recorded breeding between all HGs & YLG Plus Caspian is happening, so DNA or ringed birds will one day be the order of the day!
Small round head & longwings of HG tues, colour of coverts in the darker end of HG tues but in one photo pale as HG tues(taking into account the photo settings) & HG tues at that time of year (breeding) can have yellowish legs I have seen a some!
YLG at the same time of year, the legs are proper yellow.

Mixed blood, HG tues. Doesn't look heavier enough for HG tatus for me, YLG tough one.

 

[Butty]

What's all this Tuesday and potatoes stuff?

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello Keeplooking,

first and important: thanks for commenting.

I hope this doesnt come out as an offense (you know), but I have to agree with Butty. Please note, that especially in an international forum with non-native speakers, choosing the right sentences is helpful.
At least I as a non-native speaker can only guess that you identified the bird as a YLG and struggle to place the features you mentioned in the right context.

Again: no offence, just a polite and friendly meant quest. You know I am very grateful for detailed comments, so I can learn. Thanks!

 

[wheatearlp]

What's all this Tuesday and potatoes stuff?

I'm assuming 'tues' is supposed to be 'teus' to signify 'argenteus', with 'tatus' being 'argentatus'.

 

[Keeplooking]

I'm assuming 'tues' is supposed to be 'teus' to signify 'argenteus', with 'tatus' being 'argentatus'.

Yep, 😎

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Thanks Wheatearlp for clearing that up.
Makes the text slightly better understandable to me, but I am still puzzled.

Therefore again: no offence, just a polite and friendly meant quest. You know I am very grateful for detailed comments, so I can learn. Thanks!

 

[Keeplooking]

It is a interesting bird.
HGs can have pale yellow legs normally from the more northern /eastern areas indicating HG tatus, but this bird has the round head of HG tues or is it a small fem HG tatus?
Recently recorded breeding between all HGs & YLG Plus Caspian is happening, so DNA or ringed birds will one day be the order of the day!
Small round head & longwings of HG tues, colour of coverts in the darker end of HG tues but in one photo pale as HG tues(taking into account the photo settings) & HG tues at that time of year (breeding) can have yellowish legs I have seen a some!
YLG at the same time of year, the legs are proper yellow.

Mixed blood, HG tues. Doesn't look heavier enough for HG tatus for me, YLG tough one.

I was considering the options at time of writing & I personally, based on your photos consider it a European Herring Gull Argenteus😉😉 hope my opinion is useful 🤓

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello again Keeplooking,

yes it is. Thanks for expanding/explaining your comment.

and after it worked and I assume you didnt regarded my comment as an offence, may I ask that you explain the features of this bird in relation to the two subspecies of Herring Gull argenteus and argentatus ?

I assume, that you wrote, that an older immature YLG should have brighter yellow legs= dull/fleshy/washed leg colour is a feature of "yellow legged"-HG. Is that right?

Yes, the reason for my confusion might well be that I am a non-native speaker:
Therefore again: no offence, just a polite and friendly meant quest. You know I am very grateful for detailed comments, so I can learn. Thanks!