Large WH Gull id. Athens Greece (1 Viewer)

[Dimitris]

Greetings and happy new year to all!

It's been a while since I last saw large gulls (only get Silver Gulls in Australia) and thus my poor id skills have become extremely rusty over the last three years.

Here I attach a shot and a crop of the wing of a bird, taken last week, that may be a Caspian Gull rather then the locally abundant Yellow-legged Gull. It had a whitish underwing, but then again about 30% of what I id as 1st winter YLGs do too.

The third shot is of, what I think of, a more typically patterned 1st winter YLG that had a browner underwing.

Cheers and thanks for your help,

Dimitris

 

[lou salomon]

ahm, it's the same bird in all 3 pics, dimi, right?

not a caspian with such a bold pattern! this is my first case of a 1st winter michahellis with complete postjuvenile moult, i'll add it to my pics, if you allow, dimi - a really weird looking bird. YLG can have an extensive moult from end july-august on - scapulars, head and neck, usually some median and lesser coverts (as opposite to e.g. herring). the only juvenile feathers are - and now really starts the crux - the old outer primaries, very worn and brown. such a late primary moult is usually found only in northern species like herring gull and now: 2nd gen. primaries - that should strongly point towards a 2cy (2nd winter) herring. still - structure makes the ID here: to me it the whole body with long legs and large head with strong black bill say YLG to me rather than HG. but let's hear if this has happened before - we got to let some more eyes upon this bird.

if it really is a 1cy YLG (which i think) it's really a big thing: that there are even 2nd generation primaries (and all rectrices moulted as well). possibly this cancels my gut feeling on YLG structure, if it is never heard of... probably jan comes and tells this is a herring gull (which would be a much bigger find for greece anyway, dimi!). :t:
edit: the more i look on it the more it is a large male retarded 2nd winter argentatus, probably from a northern population. being such a powerful bird may account for my first feeling of a monster 1st winter YLG.
bird in pic 3 is definitely the same bird, dimitri. what a find!! :clap::clap::clap: i think you should join ody and fill the paper for the greek rarities committee.
now let's see what the GRF cracks say.

 

[tittletattler]

Great Black-backed Gull???

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Hmm, the primaries projection looks pretty long (not good for a GGB Gull). The bird has a YL Gull structure and a Herring Gull plumage...

 

[lou salomon]

Great Black-backed Gull???

i've considered even GBBG - large bill etc. but it doesn't have the GBBG jizz, not such pronounced gonys and it has a comparatively large eye. but primary projection isn't that long, cristian. old p10 projection over tail is not longer than tail projection over tertials.
these are 2nd winter october-novemebr GBBG:

http://www.gull-research.org/gbbg/gbbg2cy/gbbg02cyoct.htm

a very< typical one:

http://www.gull-research.org/gbbg/gbbg2cy/images2cy/9480gbbg2cy.jpg

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.talk.gull-research.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=158

looks like a very advanced YLG is the best bet. theo also considered 2cy GBBG but to me structure, especially head looks much better for YLG. anyway a very interesting bird. i've never encountered a bird with fully grown second generation p1-8 (well, p6?-p8 visible here). and sorry for paniking with herring gull o
no other pix, dimi???

 

[Dimitris]

http://www.talk.gull-research.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=158

looks like a very advanced YLG is the best bet. theo also considered 2cy GBBG but to me structure, especially head looks much better for YLG. anyway a very interesting bird. i've never encountered a bird with fully grown second generation p1-8 (well, p6?-p8 visible here). and sorry for paniking with herring gull o
no other pix, dimi???

Hello Lou and thanks everyone else for their opinions too,

First off. Picture 3, was taken later and thus I assume(d) a different bird, which I think the wing pattern confirms (much more white on pictures 1 and 2 than 3). :-O

I too thought of GBBG, but it wasn't that big, no bigger than any of the YLGs anyway. I do have more shots of the bird and I may have gotten some more today...So I will go through them right away.

Feel free to add them to your collection Lou. Even if it is a Herring Gull I would have no idea unless you told me.

Will be back ASAP.

D.

Edit: No flight shots unfortunately, but here's what I have.

The first is of the original bird (first two photos), and shows how big the bird is in relation to a BHG

The second is of the bird in picture 3, this shows the left side so it could be the same as the one in 1 and two after all.

The rest are of a third bird from today. I ided it as a YLG, but was curious what others think.

 

[lou salomon]

hi dimi,

first two pics (in #7) are definitely the same bird (and the original one), 3-5 are another very advanced 1cy YLG. maybe that aegean birds are hatched earlier in the year and thus have a longer time for an extensive postjuvenile moult - these are 2 examples of it. the second one seems to be actively moulting its rectrices (almost done) and basically has only 2nd gen. coverts and tertials like the first one. but i really didn't expect a YLG to renew also its primaries after a few month of wear. this one is a similar bird from greece: http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece03.html (4.10.2007, alexandropouli, visa rauste)

 

[Dimitris]

hi dimi,

first two pics (in #7) are definitely the same bird (and the original one), 3-5 are another very advanced 1cy YLG. maybe that aegean birds are hatched earlier in the year and thus have a longer time for an extensive postjuvenile moult - these are 2 examples of it. the second one seems to be actively moulting its rectrices (almost done) and basically has only 2nd gen. coverts and tertials like the first one. but i really didn't expect a YLG to renew also its primaries after a few month of wear. this one is a similar bird from greece: http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece03.html (4.10.2007, alexandropouli, visa rauste)

Hello Lou,

Thanks for the info. I guess that I can't trust my books when it comes to the local LWHGs...Hopefully next time I'll 'bother' you with the 'real deal'. =)

I have a bunch of shots of other 1st winters if you are interested...There's not much else to look at and photograph in Athens...:-C

Cheers,

D.

 

[JANJ]

Just goes to show how simlar some michahellis and some marinus can be and argentatus/argenteus is not a good candidate.
However, a 1cy michahellis with such an advanced moult in Dec. is quite possible. There´s just one problem for such a bird at this time of year, or any 1cy LWHG at this latitude - the active primary moult.

What would you call the darker gull in the middle in pic 8 (also in pic. 9) here:

http://www.mallorcaweb.net/gavines/atipiques.htm

Jan

 

[Dimitris]

What would you call the darker gull in the middle in pic 8 (also in pic. 9) here:

http://www.mallorcaweb.net/gavines/atipiques.htm

Jan

Hello Jan,

A runt female GBBG? Has a very powerfully built head and seems to have something stuck in that massive throat/neck...

Cheers,

D.

 

[lou salomon]

i'd call that a powerfull michahellis too. especially in YLG such massive necks are quite common. but seen in the first pic near the paler ylg in pic 8 it really resembles a gbbg! that paler one also has moulted most coverts and tertials. actually quite some of these mallorcan birds also show this combination (new GC/TT): http://www.mallorcaweb.net/gavines/IMATGES/Atipiques/Lmichahellis3octubre'09.jpg and http://www.mallorcaweb.net/gavines/IMATGES/Atipiques/Lmichahellis4setembre'09.jpg (whatever that weirdo is)

this is a also a 1st winter ylg: http://ic2.pbase.com/o3/09/645509/1/89691368.0zXMDjmZ.IMG_3066.jpg

added this romanian guy, pardon, girl, since it was dwarfy as well: http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1354480&postcount=659 and http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1354481&postcount=660 it resembles slightly your athens december bird (which date exactly? and where, athens)

that 2nd bird i'd call a 1cy michahellis too now, not pontic.

 

[Dimitris]

i'd call that a powerfull michahellis too. especially in YLG such massive necks are quite common. but seen in the first pic near the paler ylg in pic 8 it really resembles a gbbg! that paler one also has moulted most coverts and tertials. actually quite some of these mallorcan birds also show this combination (new GC/TT): http://www.mallorcaweb.net/gavines/IMATGES/Atipiques/Lmichahellis3octubre'09.jpg and http://www.mallorcaweb.net/gavines/IMATGES/Atipiques/Lmichahellis4setembre'09.jpg (whatever that weirdo is)

this is a also a 1st winter ylg: http://ic2.pbase.com/o3/09/645509/1/89691368.0zXMDjmZ.IMG_3066.jpg

really?!

added this romanian guy, pardon, girl, since it was dwarfy as well: http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1354480&postcount=659 and http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1354481&postcount=660 it resembles slightly your athens december bird (which date exactly? and where, athens)

that 2nd bird i'd call a 1cy michahellis too now, not pontic.

Lou,

The dates of the first batch of photos is the 24/12/09 (I think...). While the third bird is from the 2-1-10.

Edit: Location is Glyfada, Athens, Greece

Cheers