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Latest IOC diary updates (1 Viewer)

opisska

Jan Ebr
Czech Republic
I would just like to hear how does the removal of the offensive names personally affect anyone here. What issues so dire that you feel the need to constantly fight against it does it cause to you? The whole "problem of PC culture" is just a boogeyman created by people who can't stand that someone tells them that they don't like their behavior and that they maybe could consider being nicer ... oh the horror!!!

It's frankly always the same and it's getting tiring. Conservative people want the world to stay exactly as it were when they were younger - including all the unfair benefits they get simply for being born the right way - and any change is a terrible disaster for them. White (and some of them even British to boot!) people outraged about renaming a bird named after an offensive term for an ethnic minority seems like such an inconsequential nonsense, but in the greater scheme of things, it's just another symptom of a bigger problem. It's really the same as white people in the US fighting against affirmative action or men in Europe whining about the "preferential" treatment given to women and vigorously denying the existence of a pay gap, or straight people everywhere claiming how same-sex marriage and humane treatment of trans people destroys their family values.

It really very simple: do you not want to be "attacked by the PC crowd"? Then check all your privileges and refrain from commenting negatively on matters related to people who lack those. Or, of course, don't do that, we have freedom of speech, but then I also have the freedom of speech to call you out, don't I?
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
I would just like to hear how does the removal of the offensive names personally affect anyone here. What issues so dire that you feel the need to constantly fight against it does it cause to you? The whole "problem of PC culture" is just a boogeyman created by people who can't stand that someone tells them that they don't like their behavior and that they maybe could consider being nicer ... oh the horror!!!

It really very simple: do you not want to be "attacked by the PC crowd"? Then check all your privileges and refrain from commenting negatively on matters related to people who lack those. Or, of course, don't do that, we have freedom of speech, but then I also have the freedom of speech to call you out, don't I?
Freedom of speech is long gone, it only applies if you're saying what the left want to hear and your rambling comparisons with gay rights etc is nonsense.

The fact that you don't like people questioning the changes, says all I need to know, people like you, seek to close down any discussion with outlandish claims of racism and of people being 'enraged'. The fact is that this is all being driven by a small group of academics and other, like minded professionals but in reality (that's where I live btw), ordinary birders and others, who may not have the balls to say it here, are fed up with it all and think it's nonsense.

Who exactly, is being offended by these names? I'll tell you, it's this small group in America who are taking it upon themselves to be 'offended' on behalf of other ethnic groups of whom they probably had never heard, until they started dissectiong the various lists.

There's no discussion to be had here because most constributors in this section, are from the same or similar background. Such lack of diversity leads to a total absence of meaningful, discussion so I'm taking a sabatical for the new year and you can all sit here, happily agreeing with each other without any dissenting voices which it seems, is just the way you like it.
 
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Maffong

Well-known member
Freedom of speech is long gone, it only applies if you're saying what the left want to hear and your rambling comparisons with gay rights etc is nonsense.

The fact that you don't like people questioning the changes, says all I need to know, people like you, seek to close down any discussion with outlandish claims of racism and of people being 'enraged'. The fact is that this is all being driven by a small group of academics and other, like minded professionals but in reality (that's where I live btw), ordinary birders and others, who may not have the balls to say it here, are fed up with it all and think it's nonsense.

Who exactly, is being offended by these names? I'll tell you, it's this small group in America who are taking it upon themselves to be 'offended' on behalf of other ethnic groups of whom they probably had never heard, until they started dissectiong the various lists.

There's no discussion to be had here because most constributors in this section, are from the same or similar background. Such lack of diversity leads to a total absence of meaningful, discussion so I'm taking a sabatical for the new year and you can all sit here, happily agreeing with each other without any dissenting voices which it seems, is just the way you like it.
The fact that you can still comment on each and every thread and give us your opinion clearly shows that you still have ALL the freedom of speech you want. The fact that you can't handle criticism to your viewpoint does not change that! And even though our opinions may differ, believe me that I would stand up for you, if that freedom would ever be taken away from anyone here without good reasons.

The point is not that you dissent with name changes. The point is that you dissent without giving good reasons other than "It's how it always used to be". The same arguments are the reason why glue trapping, driven grouse shooting and lead ammunition are still a thing.
 

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
Nor yours in many cases but it doesn't stop you renaming anything that offends this group of activist, American scientists.

If it were actually peoples such as the Khoisan or the Pygmy who were complaining, you'd have a lot fewer comments from people like me but it's not.
Conversely, given that you are not Khoisan nor even South African, your opinion on this matter also carries no weight. And given what this topic was started by, the change was actually initiated by BirdLife South Africa List Committee, not American activists.

Besides, I bet if I came up with a Khoisan who thought the name was offensive, you would just move the goal posts to multiple Khoisan, or the majority, or some other BS.
 

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
Who exactly, is being offended by these names? I'll tell you, it's this small group in America who are taking it upon themselves to be 'offended' on behalf of other ethnic groups of whom they probably had never heard, until they started dissectiong the various lists.
This is BS. A very quick google search reveals that Sweden in 2015 was the first to move to get rid of Hottentot. Most Americans don't even know what that word means...we have plenty of our own racial issues to focus on.
 

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
I would just like to hear how does the removal of the offensive names personally affect anyone here. What issues so dire that you feel the need to constantly fight against it does it cause to you? The whole "problem of PC culture" is just a boogeyman created by people who can't stand that someone tells them that they don't like their behavior and that they maybe could consider being nicer ... oh the horror!!!

It's frankly always the same and it's getting tiring. Conservative people want the world to stay exactly as it were when they were younger - including all the unfair benefits they get simply for being born the right way - and any change is a terrible disaster for them. White (and some of them even British to boot!) people outraged about renaming a bird named after an offensive term for an ethnic minority seems like such an inconsequential nonsense, but in the greater scheme of things, it's just another symptom of a bigger problem. It's really the same as white people in the US fighting against affirmative action or men in Europe whining about the "preferential" treatment given to women and vigorously denying the existence of a pay gap, or straight people everywhere claiming how same-sex marriage and humane treatment of trans people destroys their family values.

It really very simple: do you not want to be "attacked by the PC crowd"? Then check all your privileges and refrain from commenting negatively on matters related to people who lack those. Or, of course, don't do that, we have freedom of speech, but then I also have the freedom of speech to call you out, don't I?

EXACTLY THIS

Not a single person has provided a single bit of evidence that changing the names of these birds somehow affects them in the slightest. At most, it requires you to spend 10 seconds changing a name in your lists.
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
EXACTLY THIS

Not a single person has provided a single bit of evidence that changing the names of these birds somehow affects them in the slightest. At most, it requires you to spend 10 seconds changing a name in your lists.
What a ridiculous argument or as you so eloquently prefer 'BS'.
 

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
I'll say it again as you either overlooked it or didn't understand it. I'm challenging the validity of the name changes, simply based on the route that it's coming from and how it's being done. The list has been 'owned' by American, academics who are driving these changes based on personal agendas, it has nothing to do with the names being offensive to various, indiginous groups of people, if it were, I'd have nothing to say. If someone can show me a letter from a single Pygmy or Koisan, I'll shut up right now!
Except you keep ignoring that this change is a result of Birdlife South Africa, and possibly Sweden. This is not driven by the actions of Americans.
 

jurek

Well-known member
And perhaps you could provide us a reason you care so much, given that all of these named birds don't even live in your own country?
You seem to divide people and countries into ones which have right to be interested in bird names, and ones which do not. And I thought you are interested in inclusion and equality.
It will be less stressful for you to see this through the lens of the ever evolving nature of language, rather than through the lens of political correctness.
This is not evolving nature of language, but few persons' attempt to force the language on the international community. Ah, and casually their efforts are backed by the American dominance in the internet.

In case you forget - I am still waiting for a summary how change of bird names was receive by people whose wrongs were supposedly corrected. Come on folks! I am giving you an opportunity to boast what praise is received! Or, just maybe, you suspect this was a pointless effort? Then what about returning to my original proposal - keep communication free, and do good where it is actually helping someone?

And, politically correct ones - what about the Attilas Attila? Should seven birds bear the name of a genocidal tyrant?
 

Jacana

Will Jones
Hungary
This is not evolving nature of language, but few persons' attempt to force the language on the international community. Ah, and casually their efforts are backed by the American dominance in the internet.
It absolutely is a valid form of language evolution. So many changes in language are political, this is just one facet of it. Like it or not, Americans make up a large portion of the English speaking peoples. These proposals are all regarding the English names of these species. The powers that decide the Polish names may well take a different view, which is their right.

In case you forget - I am still waiting for a summary how change of bird names was receive by people whose wrongs were supposedly corrected. Come on folks! I am giving you an opportunity to boast what praise is received! Or, just maybe, you suspect this was a pointless effort? Then what about returning to my original proposal - keep communication free, and do good where it is actually helping someone?
Hopefully someone will be along shortly to give you this affirmation. For the majority of people though it has no positive or negative effect on their day to day lives. You are of course correct to say, just as Malcolm X said, that if we aren't careful, symbolic changes will not be followed up by systematic changes when it comes to the oppression of minority groups. Of course, that doesn't mean that those symbolic changes that are made by people in a position to do them are worthless.

And, politically correct ones - what about the Attilas Attila? Should seven birds bear the name of a genocidal tyrant?
Certainly something to think about for the people who like to make these decisions :)
 

Nutcracker

Stop Brexit!
And, politically correct ones - what about the Attilas Attila? Should seven birds bear the name of a genocidal tyrant?
Is the genus actually named after that person? Or is it some other unrelated etymology that just happened to end up with the same spelling?
 

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
You seem to divide people and countries into ones which have right to be interested in bird names, and ones which do not. And I thought you are interested in inclusion and equality.
Equality doesn't mean foreigners get an equal say over the everyday matters of citizens in other nations.

My belief is that, in regards to English language names, the people who actually share there country and see the birds everyday should have their rights respected in what they call there birds. If a Brit wants to call a Bearded Tit a Bearded Tit, more power to them. If South African birders want to use Fynbos Hottentot, great for them. Really the only time I think its worth having a debate over names is when multiple regions share the same species, although given taxonomic changes that list of overlapping birds is growing ever smaller.

And again, everyone is pointing to American imperialism when it's the SOUTH AFRICANS WHO MADE THE CHANGE. Hell, IOC itself has a set of INTERNATIONAL advisors: a quick scan of that list reveals folks from all over the world, Some who post on this very forum! So cut out this nonsense about American political correctness driving this change.
 
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Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
Attila and Hottentot are not remotely equivalent. A ancient warlord who predates pretty much most/all nation states and cultural groupings is not the same as a slang term in recent usage with negative connotations.
 

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