Latest IOC Diary Updates (1 Viewer)

[DMW]

It's transparent. The updates don't become "official" until the new version of the checklist is published. It's nice to be able to see the thought processes behind the decisions.

I wonder whether IOC would consider adopting a similar system to SACC where a proposal is formally tabled, and individual committee members respond with their views in public?
I appreciate it might add to what is probably an already high workload, but I find it very interesting to see the back-and-forth that leads to a decision being adopted.

 

[Joseph Anthony]

June 29 Split Short-billed Gull Larus brachyrhynchus from Common Gull (L. canus) Change English name of L. canus from Mew Gull to Common Gull.


What do you recommend? Should I proceed with an armchair tick or wait for the species to lump again shortly?

 

[Mysticete]

June 29 Split Short-billed Gull Larus brachyrhynchus from Common Gull (L. canus) Change English name of L. canus from Mew Gull to Common Gull.


What do you recommend? Should I proceed with an armchair tick or wait for the species to lump again shortly?

Kind of sounds like you need to switch to Clements if this is bothering you so much...

 

[Andy Adcock]

Kind of sounds like you need to switch to Clements if this is bothering you so much...

I'm c-30 species if I do that.

 

[DDonsker]

June 29 Split Short-billed Gull Larus brachyrhynchus from Common Gull (L. canus) Change English name of L. canus from Mew Gull to Common Gull.


What do you recommend? Should I proceed with an armchair tick or wait for the species to lump again shortly?

Joe,

I think that you misunderstand the purpose of posting the IOC Updates between versions of the IOC World Bird List. It's exactly for the purpose of obtaining feedback from the broad ornithological community. That pool of knowledge, beyond our own advisory team, is indispensable, and we value it considerably.

So, although posted decisions don't frequently change, they are subject to revision until the formal updated version of the IOC World Bird List is published, as others in this Forum have already carefully explained.

So, it's best not to "count your chickens before they are hatched".

Cheers,

David

 

[TomDerutter]

6/30/2021 Begin transition to IOC 11.2

 

[Sangahyando]

June 29 Split Short-billed Gull Larus brachyrhynchus from Common Gull (L. canus) Change English name of L. canus from Mew Gull to Common Gull.

If the species is going to be split, why not retain "Mew Gull" for the American ssp., though? It's more succinct than "Short-billed Gull" and probably more entrenched within the community.

 

[njlarsen]

The argument for short-billed was in the NACC proposal. IOC is likely choosing to go along to avoid confusion from conflicting names.
Niels

 

[Mysticete]

The argument for short-billed was in the NACC proposal. IOC is likely choosing to go along to avoid confusion from conflicting names.
Niels

From a US perspective it makes sense, since Common Gull is an annual stray to the east coast, and I imagine Mew Gull also is a possibility. So if someone reported a Mew Gull in New York, it would be hard to determine if they meant Mew Gull in the "new" sense or in the old sense, which could include Common Gull.

 

[Sangahyando]

From a US perspective it makes sense, since Common Gull is an annual stray to the east coast, and I imagine Mew Gull also is a possibility. So if someone reported a Mew Gull in New York, it would be hard to determine if they meant Mew Gull in the "new" sense or in the old sense, which could include Common Gull.

Then again, a British or Irish birder might not be likely to refer the Eurasian forms, or the complex in general, as "Mew Gull". I don't find the NACC's argumentation very convincing, and IMO it's in line with a greater trend of scientists being overly pedantic with vernacular names and forgetting who and what those names are actually for, i.e. the general public.
If the overall goal is to get more people involved in birding (and interested in nature in general), why get rid of traditional, evocative, and easy to memorize names? N.B. - I'm not talking about eponyms here, since those are kind of iffy, but well-established, and often old, vernacular names, like the aforementioned Mew Gull.

 

[njlarsen]

I disagree with part of what you are saying. As a rule, I want different names for all forms of a split compared to what they were called before. It just makes interpreting what is meant so much easier.

I do consider myself a birder and not a scientist (at least not an ornithologist).
Niels

 

[DDonsker]

The argument for short-billed was in the NACC proposal. IOC is likely choosing to go along to avoid confusion from conflicting names.
Niels

Exactly. The preference of the IOC World Bird List is to defer to the NACC/AOS on English names for those species whose breeding ranges are strictly native to the NACC's region of coverage.

 

[Kirk Roth]

Then again, a British or Irish birder might not be likely to refer the Eurasian forms, or the complex in general, as "Mew Gull". I don't find the NACC's argumentation very convincing, and IMO it's in line with a greater trend of scientists being overly pedantic with vernacular names and forgetting who and what those names are actually for, i.e. the general public.
If the overall goal is to get more people involved in birding (and interested in nature in general), why get rid of traditional, evocative, and easy to memorize names? N.B. - I'm not talking about eponyms here, since those are kind of iffy, but well-established, and often old, vernacular names, like the aforementioned Mew Gull.

I'd be surprised if any members of the NACC or IBRC consider the overall goal of their naming decisions to get people into birding. That sort of thing is more along the lines of what the ABA does - although their leadership has long decided to follow suit with NACC names.

I didn't get the sense at all from the NACC explanation that it had a pedantic feel - actually quite the opposite. Rather than insisting on the older nomenclature (based on a misspelling of a dutch word for "seagull" I'll add), they are reacting to more current usages put forth in publications, field guides, general usage by the public, and so on.

It has been expressed elsewhere and in this forum the difficulties the general public has with splits when one taxon retains the old common name and the other does not. Appropriate examples are Wilson's vs. Common Snipe, and Common Gallinule vs. Common Moorhen which shares a similar range to this gull species pair. In the U.S. there is still some lingering confusion on Canada vs. Cackling Goose. Short-billed Gull is a great way to refer to that taxon which well exhibits an ID character that general birders should focus on. Mew Gull remains a great way to refer to the species pair, as it has de facto for quite some time and extent in general usage.

 

[jts1882]

Not using Mew Gull for the new species designations certainly avoids ambiguity. It could also allow use of secondary common names, e.g. Common Gull = Eurasian Mew Gull and Short-billed Gull = American Mew Gull.

 

[Acanthis]

If me a European, travelled to North America and saw this bird would I exclaim "my god! That gull has a really short bill!" ?

 

[njlarsen]

Check the images: The 2021 AOS Supplement is out! - American Birding Association

If me a European, travelled to North America and saw this bird would I exclaim "my god! That gull has a really short bill!" ?

 

[Joseph Anthony]

Tell me what do you think. Will Kamchatka Mew Gull (L. c. kamtschatschensis ) split in the near future? And what about Russian Mew Gull (L. c. henei)? Is not larger and darker on mantle than and more sparsely marked on head and neck than L. c. canus, plus migrant to different wintering geographic areas?

I fantasize about this:

European Mew gull - L. canus
Russian Mew Gull - L. heinei
Kamchatka Mew Gull - L. kamtschatschensis
American Mew gull - L. brachyrhynchus

​

 

[Mysticete]

Then again, a British or Irish birder might not be likely to refer the Eurasian forms, or the complex in general, as "Mew Gull". I don't find the NACC's argumentation very convincing, and IMO it's in line with a greater trend of scientists being overly pedantic with vernacular names and forgetting who and what those names are actually for, i.e. the general public.
If the overall goal is to get more people involved in birding (and interested in nature in general), why get rid of traditional, evocative, and easy to memorize names? N.B. - I'm not talking about eponyms here, since those are kind of iffy, but well-established, and often old, vernacular names, like the aforementioned Mew Gull.

My preference is that new splits where both splits have a wide distribution should also get new common names. There is a practicality element to this, especially with ebird. I've heard first hand how much a pain in the butt for rare bird committees and ebird reviewers it is that Winter Wren was maintained when Pacific Wren was split. Similar arguments were made about Common Gallinule and Common Moorhen not changing names.

My biggest issue on this front is how inconsistent folks sometimes are. You see that here, for instance Tropical Gnatcatcher was maintained for one half of the split, when that species is also wide-ranging.

 

[Mysticete]

Not using Mew Gull for the new species designations certainly avoids ambiguity. It could also allow use of secondary common names, e.g. Common Gull = Eurasian Mew Gull and Short-billed Gull = American Mew Gull.

But then we would have to deal with rants about HOW DARE AMERICAN IMPERIALISTS RENAME OUR GULL which happens every time one of these lists suggests a new name for a British species.

 

[Mysticete]

Tell me what do you think. Will Kamchatka Mew Gull (L. c. kamtschatschensis ) split in the near future? And what about Russian Mew Gull (L. c. henei)? Is not larger and darker on mantle than and more sparsely marked on head and neck than L. c. canus, plus migrant to different wintering geographic areas?

I fantasize about this:

European Mew gull - L. canus
Russian Mew Gull - L. heinei
Kamchatka Mew Gull - L. kamtschatschensis
American Mew gull - L. brachyrhynchus

​

Maybe Kamchatka...Larus kamtschatschensis is mentioned in the supplement, with NACC deferring a decisions to other folks.

I've not heard anything to suggest a 4 way split of this species, so that seems unlikely