-
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE!
Register for an account to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Lesser golden plover, Breydon, Norfolk (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ben_lewis
- Start date
Phil Bishop
Well-known member
Seems to be reported as probable Pacific today.
The primary=tail length seem to suggest it could be but I am not familiar with the lessers in spring to be sure of the id. The tertials seem a bit short, but presumably its due to moult.
The primary=tail length seem to suggest it could be but I am not familiar with the lessers in spring to be sure of the id. The tertials seem a bit short, but presumably its due to moult.
Where are all the Lesser Golden Plover experts?
As Phil pointed out, the tertials seem a bit on the short side for Pacific, but moult could complicate this. I'm a bit surprised by the face pattern especially the very prominent whitish supercilium, but the photo quality may be to blame and pic 1 seems to show a yellowish tint to the face and super. The breast appears rather greyish for Pacific, but the angle doesn't help. However, the bill does appear quite long, but with nothing to compare this with in the photo it's difficult to be certain.
I far from familiar with Lesser Golden Plovers, especially at this time of year, but I'm wondering how a "bright" American GP can be ruled out from these photos? Also, the early April date strikes me as very early for Pacific and perhaps more in keeping with a northward moving American GP that has overwintered further south.
Hopefully the bird will stay til Friday at least so I get a chance to see it "in the field".
Chris
Edit: A quick check on RBA suggests time of year is irrelevant with 3 similar (or earlier) records for PGP compared to 4 for AGP
As Phil pointed out, the tertials seem a bit on the short side for Pacific, but moult could complicate this. I'm a bit surprised by the face pattern especially the very prominent whitish supercilium, but the photo quality may be to blame and pic 1 seems to show a yellowish tint to the face and super. The breast appears rather greyish for Pacific, but the angle doesn't help. However, the bill does appear quite long, but with nothing to compare this with in the photo it's difficult to be certain.
I far from familiar with Lesser Golden Plovers, especially at this time of year, but I'm wondering how a "bright" American GP can be ruled out from these photos? Also, the early April date strikes me as very early for Pacific and perhaps more in keeping with a northward moving American GP that has overwintered further south.
Hopefully the bird will stay til Friday at least so I get a chance to see it "in the field".
Chris
Edit: A quick check on RBA suggests time of year is irrelevant with 3 similar (or earlier) records for PGP compared to 4 for AGP
Last edited:
I'm no expert, but isn't that eyebrow just too white for Pacific? The wings look very long, despite the terrible state of moult this bird seems to be in.
Compare to this December Pacific I saw at Salton Sea (Cal.): http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=131516
Compare to this December Pacific I saw at Salton Sea (Cal.): http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=131516
I've had a trawl through some images on Google and can't find a Pacific with this sort of head pattern, particularly the supercilium, but it appears standard for AGP. I was able to find at least one AGP that was as birght as this bird on the back though.
Such difficult species to separate!!!
Such difficult species to separate!!!
ben_lewis
Well-known member
I agree there are pro features for either species, After looking on the net at various images it seems as though the head pattern may be slightly better for AGP however it does have a yellow wash to it, these photos were taken in quite strong sunlight but it does have a very strong super in real life too.
The bill from tip to culman if folded back on itself comes past the rear of the eye a pro PGP feature apparently. (see attempted diagram representing this (on paint))
-The feathering at the top of the base of the bill is clearly pale, on AGP this forehead area should be dark.
-The pale supercillium and throat have a yellow wash to them, this should be white on AGP.
-From looking at pictures it seems that this bird has a thicker bill than the more fine AGP’s
-The bill is also thicker at the base than the tip whereas AGP tends to be a similar width all the way from base to tip.
The main problem is that the tertials and primaries were very difficult to judge in the field, equally so on these pictures. looking at some of the comments above the super does seem very strong for PGP, I wonder if it is actually possible to ID this bird in its current plumage? The underwings certainly seemed smokey grey rather than the dark grey i have seen on AGP....
The bill from tip to culman if folded back on itself comes past the rear of the eye a pro PGP feature apparently. (see attempted diagram representing this (on paint))
-The feathering at the top of the base of the bill is clearly pale, on AGP this forehead area should be dark.
-The pale supercillium and throat have a yellow wash to them, this should be white on AGP.
-From looking at pictures it seems that this bird has a thicker bill than the more fine AGP’s
-The bill is also thicker at the base than the tip whereas AGP tends to be a similar width all the way from base to tip.
The main problem is that the tertials and primaries were very difficult to judge in the field, equally so on these pictures. looking at some of the comments above the super does seem very strong for PGP, I wonder if it is actually possible to ID this bird in its current plumage? The underwings certainly seemed smokey grey rather than the dark grey i have seen on AGP....
Attachments
Last edited:
ben_lewis
Well-known member
The three photos i have already posted show just about as much detail as any others i took, it didnt really move around or face any other angles as it was trying to get out of the wind
I'm not sure about this one really, but some interesting pics below
The following links are xenospiza's link
This set of PGP are roughly in the same moult (Feb)
http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog...opt=2&srl=5832295&dte=2007-04-03+20:44:00.000
This AGP is particularly golden
http://www.capebretonbirds.ca/americangoldenplover.html
I'm not sure about this one really, but some interesting pics below
The following links are xenospiza's link
This set of PGP are roughly in the same moult (Feb)
http://shorebirds.exblog.jp/pg/blog...opt=2&srl=5832295&dte=2007-04-03+20:44:00.000
This AGP is particularly golden
http://www.capebretonbirds.ca/americangoldenplover.html
sacha
Well-known member
I haven't seen the bird yet (and can't go until Saturday if it is still there) but i too think the head pattern (i.e the large white super and pale facial plumage) seems more like AGP...I think moult could be clouding the true ID of the bird making the wing pattern seem more in keeping with PGP
Interesting bird though.
Hopefully some more photos will appear soon if the bird is seen at a closer range!
Interesting bird though.
Hopefully some more photos will appear soon if the bird is seen at a closer range!
Getting the PGP feel from this one, but I haven't got any literture here (I'm at school atm 
) so I'll see again when I get home.
Bill seems triangular wich is good for PGP, AGP have more equally thick bills.
Primary projection indeed seems a bit short, but hard to judge from the photo's provided.
The supercillum also appears to be brighter above the eye, wich is pro PGP.
Have you got any photo's in wich the legs are visible?
Will post again when I get home!
) so I'll see again when I get home.Bill seems triangular wich is good for PGP, AGP have more equally thick bills.
Primary projection indeed seems a bit short, but hard to judge from the photo's provided.
The supercillum also appears to be brighter above the eye, wich is pro PGP.
Have you got any photo's in wich the legs are visible?
Will post again when I get home!
Last edited:
ben_lewis
Well-known member
More photos from this morning
Hi,
I returned to Breydon this morning in the hope of getting a better look at the bird and hope for better photos. We saw the bird fairly well, quite good scope views but still too distant to count primaries or see any major details.
The bird when first found was feeding and had a completely 'different' look to it compared to the photos when it is roosting. the bird appeared far more slender more elongated and had a very upright posture when alert. Also the legs could be seen on occasion- they were distinctively long which also changed the look of the bird.
Photo 1- shows the bird in fairly good light showing colouration of mantle and head patterning
Photo 2- Shows the tertials fairly well
Photo 3- Gives the impression of colour, the gull is obviously white and this white can be compared to the offwhite creamy yellow supercillium
Photo 4 and 5- show the underwings and spread wings although a bit blurry, These photos also shows the projection of feet beyond the tail?? Maybe I'm seeing things but to me it looks as though the black feet trail very slightly further than tail tip, although this is difficult to see due to quality of photo.
The final photo on the next entry shows the axillaries and rump area.
Notice how different the colouration of facial features are today, these were taken in dim cloudy conditions whereas yesterday was particularly bright sunshine. The super in particular looks far less white in todays light more of a tan colour. I still put it out on the pager as lesser goldie sp. it still seems to show certain features of both but I'm still leaning towards PGP.
Any new thoughts??
Hi,
I returned to Breydon this morning in the hope of getting a better look at the bird and hope for better photos. We saw the bird fairly well, quite good scope views but still too distant to count primaries or see any major details.
The bird when first found was feeding and had a completely 'different' look to it compared to the photos when it is roosting. the bird appeared far more slender more elongated and had a very upright posture when alert. Also the legs could be seen on occasion- they were distinctively long which also changed the look of the bird.
Photo 1- shows the bird in fairly good light showing colouration of mantle and head patterning
Photo 2- Shows the tertials fairly well
Photo 3- Gives the impression of colour, the gull is obviously white and this white can be compared to the offwhite creamy yellow supercillium
Photo 4 and 5- show the underwings and spread wings although a bit blurry, These photos also shows the projection of feet beyond the tail?? Maybe I'm seeing things but to me it looks as though the black feet trail very slightly further than tail tip, although this is difficult to see due to quality of photo.
The final photo on the next entry shows the axillaries and rump area.
Notice how different the colouration of facial features are today, these were taken in dim cloudy conditions whereas yesterday was particularly bright sunshine. The super in particular looks far less white in todays light more of a tan colour. I still put it out on the pager as lesser goldie sp. it still seems to show certain features of both but I'm still leaning towards PGP.
Any new thoughts??
Attachments
sacha
Well-known member
Good photos Ben.
To me the bright plumage on back looks good for PGP but the head still looks remarkably like AGP (broad white super and longish bill)! I don't have any literature to hand but will have a look when i get home from work. Surely those shots are good enough to clinch the ID?
To me the bright plumage on back looks good for PGP but the head still looks remarkably like AGP (broad white super and longish bill)! I don't have any literature to hand but will have a look when i get home from work. Surely those shots are good enough to clinch the ID?
The toes appear to be projecting beyond the tip of the tail in the flight photo's which is a feature pro PGP. And the legs also appear very long in the photo with the herring gull.
Last edited:
If someone can identify the Norfolk bird, please continue with this bird (which I'm personally a bit unsure about):
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=131638&highlight=plover
Here's the same bird together with two PGPs (you can compare the head pattern of the Norfolk bird with them):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tunpin/3354083761/
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=131638&highlight=plover
Here's the same bird together with two PGPs (you can compare the head pattern of the Norfolk bird with them):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tunpin/3354083761/
I'm pretty sure that it is a PGP after checking my literature at home.
Lappkrabben
Well-known member
That's convincing!
I'm sure no one thought of that before
What books do you use that to conclude the ID?
You even solved the mystery bird in Australia but then again you call your self Pluvialis Fulva
This in-between plumages of AGP and PGP is extremly difficult so IMO be carefull with being sure that it's possible to ID them with 100% certainty
