Living at old age (1 Viewer)

[albatross02]

Hello together,

I look for place to move at old age.

Conditions
1. For good flat like 40 quaremeters costs less than 600 Euro per month.
2. Good access to health service and health insurance
3. Low crime rate
4. Moderate climate, not extrem cold or for months hot and humid
5. Landscape variety preferable with mountain hiking, cycling and warm water for swimming
6. Good for bird watching
7. Possible get legal long term Visa

First idea was Costa Rica, but no idea where is convienient for old people there ?
From landscape interesting is Bariloche in Argentina. Price level seems quite good. Bird watching no idea ?
From landscape also Sandanski in Bulgaria seems very interesting. Good health insurance no idea ?

Any other ideas ?

Thank you very much.

Best regards
Dieter

 

[njlarsen]

Hello Dieter,
I am of an age where I also contemplate what to do in a few years. I would bring up Panama as well. A US physician once told me that David (west end of Panama) has world class health care, and determining temperature is a case of moving up or down in elevation. There is an expat community there, so I expect visa problems to be limited. What I do not know at the moment is cost of living or cost of health insurance if living there. For me, I would also need to consider cost of international health insurance because I still expect to travel.

best
Niels

 

[Nutcracker]

Definitely NOT post-brexit Britain: high likelihood soon of no health service at all for anyone other than for the very rich (i.e., USA-style private medicine), and, sadly, rapidly rising crime/hostility against EU citizens from some quarters of UK society being promoted by our nationalist fascist regime

My suggestions would be NW France, NW Spain or northern Portugal - a good fit on climate, and easy access to all facilities for EU citizens.

 

[Nutcracker]

Ireland would also be good - species diversity in most areas rather low compared to mainland Europe, but on the south and west coasts, interesting prospects for finding transatlantic vagrants and other rarities

 

[Andy Adcock]

Definitely NOT post-brexit Britain: high likelihood soon of no health service at all for anyone other than for the very rich (i.e., USA-style private medicine), and, sadly, rapidly rising crime/hostility against EU citizens from some quarters of UK society being promoted by our nationalist fascist regime

My suggestions would be NW France, NW Spain or northern Portugal - a good fit on climate, and easy access to all facilities for EU citizens.

Give it a rest Nutty, and change that silly, outdated, plea under your user name, it's finished.

My wife is an immigant and we never have any trouble from anyone.

 

[kb57]

We should definitely compile a list of how many thread topics quickly descend into a Brexit-related spat between Nutty and Andy

As someone coming up to retirement age in the next few years myself, Dieter asks a very interesting question. Nutty's answers actually reflect my thinking pretty much exactly - I've thought seriously of northern Portugal, to the extent that I'm now learning Portuguese, but I've only been there once before and had been hoping to visit last spring pre-Covid. I know the Algarve much better, well enough to know it would be too hot for me in summer, and you'd really struggle to get a 40m2 flat for anywhere near 600 euros a month. The problem for Dieter in the north may be availability of rented accommodation - there doesn't seem to be all that much on the market where I've looked (Viana / Caminha areas), and its still quite expensive.
I've given Ireland serious thought in the past too - I'm an Irish citizen as it happens, although I no longer have any family there. From Dieter's point of view, I think there are two main issues. House prices and demand vary widely across the country - Dublin area is extremely expensive with a big housing problem, places like Galway and Wexford also expensive, whereas west Cork / Kerry are much cheaper, but also more remote from public transport and services. The other is healthcare costs, which are not free in the Irish Republic, and perhaps availability of care is not what you would be used to in Germany, where my friends who live there tell me you have an excellent healthcare system.
I can't comment on Costa Rica or Panama, and wouldn't consider them personally as I'd want to be able to visit family in UK easily and for them (and friends in UK / France / Germany) to be able to come visit me. I'm not sure crime rates are anywhere near as low as Europe, if that is also an issue for you.

 

[Andy Adcock]

We should definitely compile a list of how many thread topics quickly descend into a Brexit-related spat between Nutty and Andy

While you're at it, compile a list of how many times Nutty, slips in a whiny, comment about Brexit, on an unrelated thread, which causes me to comment.

 

[kb57]

While you're at it, compile a list of how many times Nutty, slips in a whiny, comment about Brexit, on an unrelated thread, which causes me to comment.

It was an observation rather than a criticism Andy, any such list would make it obvious who the perpetrator was

 

[Nutcracker]

My wife is an immigant and we never have any trouble from anyone.

Probably because people don't see/hear anything to suggest so - if you went into shops speaking Russian to each other, I suspect you might find different? Certainly Polish people are experiencing a lot of rude remarks and harrassment in some areas, if they are heard speaking Polish to each other.

 

[jurek]

I still suggest: think of your history of medical illness and make sure the local hospital has good expertise in it. And keep an option open to return to a country with good medical coverage.

While many people want to live fast and die young, the fact is that many of us will develop illness at the old age, and would not want to be left in a 2nd class hospital then.

I have good opinion of German healthcare, which also cares about you - you will be guided through the bureaucracy. But, of course, nobody is sure how it will be after the series of EU crisis.

 

[albatross02]

Thank You very much for all informations.
Panama sounds interesting to.
Price for living costs is possible to see on

Cost of Living

www.numbeo.com

In Munich where I live now, 40 quaremeter flat costs about 800 Euro.
Possible is only to rent flat from private person or companies like Vonovia.
In smaller town is chance for flat in cooperative ( Wohngenossenschaft ).

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in Panama City are 28.66% lower than in Munich (without rent)
Rent Prices in Panama City are 47.71% lower than in Munich
Restaurant Prices in Panama City are 28.62% lower than in Munich
Groceries Prices in Panama City are 12.50% lower than in Munich
Local Purchasing Power in Panama City is 65.11% lower than in Munich

 

[albatross02]

"... perhaps availability of care is not what you would be used to in Germany, where my friends who live there tell me you have an excellent healthcare system.
I can't comment on Costa Rica or Panama, and wouldn't consider them personally as I'd want to be able to visit family in UK easily and for them (and friends in UK / France / Germany) to be able to come visit me. I'm not sure crime rates are anywhere near as low as Europe, if that is also an issue for you."

Thank you for the information. Health care in Germany was in ninetees one of the best in the world. But than follow many cuts and privatising. Live expections is in medium level of Europe, but health live expection in Germany is fourth lowest in EU with only 56,5 years.
see diagramm on page 3 of Professor Lauterbach

https://www.karllauterbach.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/pdf/Ungleiche_Verteilung_von_Gesundheitschancen.pdf

About crime, I think Thailand in bird watching area is not higher than in Europe, rather lower.
But resedential visa for Thailand is not easy to get.

 

[albatross02]

Definitely NOT post-brexit Britain: high likelihood soon of no health service at all for anyone other than for the very rich (i.e., USA-style private medicine), and, sadly, rapidly rising crime/hostility against EU citizens from some quarters of UK society being promoted by our nationalist fascist regime

My suggestions would be NW France, NW Spain or northern Portugal - a good fit on climate, and easy access to all facilities for EU citizens.

Problem is seen for instance in speech of Bundestag of Dr. Gregor Gysi 1998 !
This video is seen on youtube in German language. He warned 1998 if EU is not a union of culture and same chances, than it will be a union for big export companies, banks and maybe for insurance comapnies. If this happend hatred of foreigner and nationalism will inccrease rapidly to treahtening extent. Nobody care of his speech. Now we know he has right.

Problem is EU is trading balance.
In a currency union every coutry have to live on there production conditions. It means increase income of people in high of productivity increase and inflation.
If the income raise higher, than you get defizits.
Germany cuts the incomes of many people.
So Germany got very high export excess. If the biggest ecomony has high excess for many years, some other must have high defizits. There is no other possibility. Export excess means expert defizits and export of unemployment.
Because this German behavior EU has no chance to come out of resession which begun 2008.

It was a system resession.
see also
"The System Has No Way of Solving The Problem - Professor Richard D Wolff"

or professor Wallerstein from Yale
"Immanuel Wallerstein: The Global Systemic Crisis and the Struggle for a Post-Capitalist World"

You can also check Nobel price winners professor Joseph Stiglitz or Paul Krugman or "Einstein of politics" professor Noam Chomsky.
In Germany I check for professor Heiner Flassbeck or professor Heinz Bontrup which is called "Muhammed Ali of economy".
see also

flassbeck economics international

Economics and politics - comment and analysis

www.flassbeck-economics.com

For congnitive informations I check youtube for Professor Mausfeld. He explains why the lambs are silent.

Rainer Mausfeld - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[njlarsen]

Another idea completely: I sometimes see stories about Italian towns selling homes for one euro. It seems that in reality there is a catch with repairs being a necessary part of the contract, but it might be an option if owning a home appeals to you.

Has anyone mentioned that there is an expat community around Cuenca in Ecuador? I don’t know anything else about that area, except that the town itself is high elevation but some of the smaller, slightly lower villages around it might have a good intersection of cost and climate.
Niels

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

I'd been doing a bit of research on the subject, thanks to the risk of our current idiot president being re-elected.

Costa Rica has a lot of expats all around the country. I'd thought about San Jose, but a person I met on a birding tour who lived there turned me off to it because of crime problems.

Panama was high on my list, although I was leaning more to Panama City rather than the Chiriqui region (mainly because of non-birding considerations), although I hadn't completely ruled out Boquete. Mexico was also a possibility, specifically Playa del Carmen in the Yucatan, although San Miguel de Allende also has a large expat community, and I thought about Oaxaca, too.

As noted by Neils, Cuenca has an expat community. I don't know that much about it, and I've never been to Cuenca, but I did read that it can get cold there, so if you're older and sensitive to cold, that could be a problem. I've also heard tell that Medellin, Colombia, is also gaining popularity.

In Asia, Malaysia has an expat program called "Malaysia, My Second Home" aka MM2H (although it is on hold right now) and I really like Penang. Thailand also has programs for expats, and Chiang Mai is a nice town.

I'd love to relocate to the EU, but my heritage doesn't really give me that option, and I don't intend to start working again.

 

[jurek]

The way the cost of living is calculated is extremely misleading. Many so-called cheap tropical countries are very expensive to live at the standard and safety level of Europe. Very many things must be imported and are extremely expensive, and one pays extra e.g. for house security or reliable internet which are taken for granted in Europe. A medical care or cultural offer at a certain level could simply not exist. It is not compensated by cheap street food, a t-shirt or a wooden cottage.

A good advice: in any case, before moving abroad, don't go just to a beach or a city centre. Go to a local medical clinic and a hospital, walk around, thinking whether you would dare to be treated there.

Nevertheless, one can move to e.g. Malaysia or Thailand or Costa Rica for 10-20 years, after one retires and before health really deteriorates. Keep an option of spending your final years in Germany, preferably in the outskirts of a big metropoly, so you have the benefit of a lower rent and calmness but short distance to services of the city.

I expect that Asia might overtake Europe in a standard of living in the next decades, but it might go together with rising costs, and an expat might not benefit from e.g. growth of the local industry.

 

[YuShan]

These things are nice to dream about but probably much less nice in reality. Some of the countries mentioned are always hot and humid. That is OK for a few weeks but do you really want to live in such a climate for a long time? I know some people might, but it wears you down. I lived/ worked in Taiwan for 4 years and really enjoyed my time there, but I much prefer a temperate climate and not immediately having the sweat streaming across my back within the first 100 metres that I step outside.

Then birding... Yes some countries have more birds than you have at home. But when you live there it won't be long until you have seen them all. Then you want to travel again. So I don't think good birding is a very good excuse to emigrate.

Also don't underestimate the fact that you will probably always be a stranger in your new homeland, especially if the language is difficult to learn. Spanish, Malay or Tagalog is easy to learn. Thai, Vietnamese or Chinese not so! Even in very similar cultures and without language problems you can easily feel a bit uprooted. Many people underestimate this.

Alternatively, you could just stay in your current homeland but make more regular long trips abroad. For example, in places like Thailand it is very cheap to rent accommodation for a few months. So you just keep your home base but you can be very flexible with extended stays in other countries whenever you like.

 

[njlarsen]

YuShan,
I agree with some of what you write but disagree with other things. In many tropical areas, there are elevation differences that will allow you to choose a climate that fits you better. That would for example be the case in Western Panama and in Ecuador. Chile would be another area where you could move to a section of the country with a climate that suited you better.

Regarding the interest in birding becoming less when you have lived in an area for a while; there is some truth to that, but there is also experiences that if you are birding in a really bird rich tropical area, you will see different birds on different days even when walking the same trail. It takes time to see all of them.

Finally, my own situation is a bit different. I have lived in the Caribbean for 18 years and a long time ago agreed with myself that I do not want to move back to Denmark, both because of it being cold and because I would feel like a stranger there as well! I have experience with being not quite a local, and that is OK for me - but may not be for everyone. I have a few, but not that many years before making a final decision of "what next". One thing I have considered is that it is best to visit an area several times with somewhat extended stays before finally deciding to move there. Those visits should also include figuring out the bureaucracy one need to go through before finally moving.

Niels

 

[njlarsen]

One other little piece of information: I was told by a traveler I randomly met somewhere that getting residency permit is easier in Paraguay than in most other South American countries. That country could then be used as a basis for visits of 2-3 month at a time into the surrounding countries. That is all I know about the area.

Niels

 

[jurek]

Yes some countries have more birds than you have at home. But when you live there it won't be long until you have seen them all. Then you want to travel again.

Yes, there is a thing I called birdophobia, akin to hydrophobia. Getting accustomed and bored with birds, even rare and interesting ones. But I think Albatross02 knows it by now. Our capacity to search for new things exceeds any one natural place.

I moved between countries with good birds and countries not-so rich in birds, and one quickly get accustomed to the local birds. I lived in a coastal area, with flocks of thousands of migratory birds around, with real possibility of vagrants coming, and sometimes felt bored about birding.