Richard Klim
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Jos, were you a prefect at school?
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LSU team breaks big day record (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Kratter
- Start date
Yes, true - not a valid ABA record, but no problem the LSU calling themselves a madcap bunch of speeding hooligans who saw more species in a day than anyone else ...and a worthy title to aspire to in my book
Unfortunately I was asked to leave before I got to such lofty privilege :t:
My, my, how cozy.
But, to get back OT, surely Jos's case is unanswerable? Particularly, I would have thought for anyone who takes these kinds of "records" as seriously as some here seem to do.
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Richard Klim
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Again, not hot news, but...
blog.aba.org/2014/10/open-mic-a-new-world-big-day-record-354-species.html
PS. I see that Jos has already appended his spoiler to the blogpost. :smoke:
blog.aba.org/2014/10/open-mic-a-new-world-big-day-record-354-species.html
PS. I see that Jos has already appended his spoiler to the blogpost. :smoke:
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Farnboro John
Well-known member
Sod the ABA rules.
Surely most birders/listers will respect the LSU team's achievement. Many (most?) listing totals submitted to ABA would probably be considerably reduced if all ticks involving speeding offences were removed...
Possibly not just ABA....
I can't imagine why anybody trying for a world record would take notice of any national authority. Clearly the only possible adjudicator here is the UN. Doesn't UNESCO have rules for this?
Alternatively, of course, Guinness! Any Toucans on that list?
John
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
None accepted by ABA, due to failure of UK participants to use Americanised (sorry, Americanized) respellings of bird names
jurek
Well-known member
I don't know about Peru, but in this country, only the driver gets a ticket for speeding. So (eventually) only one person from the team broken the law. On the other hand, since the report mentions no speeding tickets, everybody is legally not guilty of breaking any law.
Now, was the team tested for doping drugs?
3
Now, was the team tested for doping drugs?
3
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Richard Klim
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I don't think 'big' days are feasible in the UK.
The most recent (2011) ABA Big Day & ABA List Report gave the UK record as 147 (England, 11 May 1996). But only seven UK big day totals had been submitted to ABA (all for the period 1989–2000)...
Whether they got a speeding ticket is not relevant, ABA rules simply state "Follow all laws, rules and regulations governing roads and public areas, both at home and abroad". They themselves have admitted they drove at 150 km/hour, not even close to the legal limit and also maintained an average that was above the legal limit!
Far worse in my book is that they now edit their story to remove these elements and post on ABA blog, etc. - clearly they have understood they made a mistake, but are now simply trying to cover it up.
Jos,
1. I see you have added your complaints as a comment to the ABA blog post. Just curious – is there any particular reason you feel so strongly about this issue? It's one thing to make the point that this big day may not have satisfied ABA rules, but your criticism goes far beyond that.
2. On your website you admit to speeding in some of your travels, and there is a description of your participation in a Lithuanian bird race. At the end of that description you state
"Time was up, we had to leave, the finish line was 20 km away and we were late - so in true rally style, we hurtled back across gravel roads and kicked dirt up in our wake, we'd return on the final dong and be not more than a few seconds late. Then I shouted 'stop' - I'd seen one potential last 'tick' flit over....as the car skipped to a halt, I dived out and indeed it was, a new species - in amongst a few a mixed flock, several Willow Tits in the roadside bushes, So, back to the car and a last spurt of speed to carry us home and at precisely 6.00 p.m., the official closing time, we crossed the line."
(Emphasis added).
http://josstratford.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=39
1. I see you have added your complaints as a comment to the ABA blog post. Just curious – is there any particular reason you feel so strongly about this issue? It's one thing to make the point that this big day may not have satisfied ABA rules, but your criticism goes far beyond that.
2. On your website you admit to speeding in some of your travels, and there is a description of your participation in a Lithuanian bird race. At the end of that description you state
"Time was up, we had to leave, the finish line was 20 km away and we were late - so in true rally style, we hurtled back across gravel roads and kicked dirt up in our wake, we'd return on the final dong and be not more than a few seconds late. Then I shouted 'stop' - I'd seen one potential last 'tick' flit over....as the car skipped to a halt, I dived out and indeed it was, a new species - in amongst a few a mixed flock, several Willow Tits in the roadside bushes, So, back to the car and a last spurt of speed to carry us home and at precisely 6.00 p.m., the official closing time, we crossed the line."
(Emphasis added).
http://josstratford.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=39
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I wouldn't have bothered with the ABA blog, but it they are going to start editing their story to attempt a cover up, what's the big issue to point it out?
I do not think my post there goes beyond pointing out they have broken ABA rules - if you think they have not broken the ABA rules, or you want to shoot me down, then post against mine on the same site. Maybe I misunderstood, but I think the ABA blog is there for persons to express their views, no?
And the relevance of this to the ABA record attempt? I never said I am an angel, but I am not claiming a world record either.
PS. I'm not entirely sure it would require breaking the speed limit to kick up dirt along that particular gravel road - full of potholes and little stones, it is a winding gravel road with a speed limit of 70 km/hour ... you would likely crash on the corners/potholes before reaching that. I can go back and test for you if you're really interested. :-O
Incidentally, someone was disqualified in this bird rally for road offenses.
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Farnboro John
Well-known member
It is apparent to me that the team in question is not composed of proper birders. Jos has, with the assistance of the team, demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the rules have been broken. Initiating a cover-up is entirely the wrong answer.
If they were proper birders, they would have realised that the right answer is that they now have the perfect excuse to go and do it all again!
John
If they were proper birders, they would have realised that the right answer is that they now have the perfect excuse to go and do it all again!
John
Paul Higson
Well-known member
Was part of a team that got 178 in the UK in a 24 hr period (over two days) - dont think that has been beaten.
John o'Sullivan
Well-known member
IT is one thing to say sod the ABA rules but if this is the case don't claim the record against ABA criteria. I'm with JOS on this. Also speeding when tired is dangerous, anyone supporting this behaviour is ignoring the risk of accident and injury and possible fatalities to innocents totally unrelated to a bunch of birders tanking around ticking birds. This is a completely pointless activity and in a world where people (particularly conservationists) are supposed to be interested in their carbon footprint inexcusable. I'm fairly sure I remember a well known and much derided twitcher describing traffic accidents as being the price you pay for top class twitching. He's been involved in a few and if you condone this sort of behaviour then sooner or later you have to accept your culpability when injuries occur. Follow the rules and the laws of the land and your efforts mean something. Ben Johnson ran very fast but surely nobody cares. Also read back and it wasn't JO'S that first pointed out the rules hadn't been followed. It seems clear ABA will refuse to accredit the "record". Interestingly my spell check keeps trying to change ABS to ABS. Ps did anyone see Munster v Sale today no that was impressive
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Richard Klim
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A charitable view would be that Jos Stratford is sincerely campaigning to encourage birders to drive more responsibly, and has no other motive in attempting to discredit an impressive birding achievement.
Either way, the only certain long-term result is that future big day teams will be less candid in their accounts.
Either way, the only certain long-term result is that future big day teams will be less candid in their accounts.
Richard Klim
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But, as Jim has noted, Jos has enthusiatically participated in "Bird rallying, Lithuanian style!".
I don't need charity, thanks.
Motive is just simple - if you're going to do a world record, what's the big deal in expecting the rules in place to be followed ... the team had read the ABA rules, as they mentioned other conditions within them, so they should have just paid a little more attention to all of them. Not following the rules gave a benefit that effectively extended the amount of time available to add species.
So, an admirable total and I agree an impressive achievement, but in my opinion, the ABA would lack credibility to accept this an an official ABA record. Clearly Richard and Jim disagree, so be it.
And what relevance has this got to with claiming a world record and then trying to do a cover up?
Sure, if you dig back through over five years of articles on my website, as Jim must have done, I am sure you will find a few other cases where I have perhaps not followed road rules, and what?
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I've already said that serious questions have been raised about whether the ABA should approve the record, so that is not really the issue in my opinion. What I object to is the following reflected in various posts in this thread (not necessarily all by you Jos):
1. Attacking the character of the big day participants based upon nothing more than numbers on a page. No one here knows the circumstances under which they drove fast, so no one here is in a position to conclude that it was reckless or unreasonably endangered other people.
2. Attacking the character of the big day participants based upon removal of the statement regarding average speed on their Facebook post. This was a fund-raising event, sponsored by a University, not just a quest for personal glory. They are under no obligation to publish and retain all information on their Facebook page, especially when it risks creating a sideshow controversy that will detract from fundraising. If they fail to disclose that information to the ABA in their record submission, then I agree that would be dishonest. But there is no reason to suppose they will do that.
3. Disputing that this is a big day worlds record. As far as I'm concerned, a big day is just seeing how many species you can ID in one day. So as far as I'm concerned this is the new world record, which may possibly deserve an asterisk and/or ABA disapproval, just as the previous record did because of its use of a plane.
4. Assuming the average speed shows an ABA rules violation before all the facts are in. It would be manifestly unreasonable for the ABA to disallow big day reports simply because there was some technical legal violation. Virtually everyone in this country exceeds the posted speed limits at some point every time they drive. Surely the ABA will interpret their rules as disallowing big days only when the violation was "material," i.e. not de minimis or technical. Determining whether it is material will depend on the facts and circumstances, such as the normal speed of traffic on such roads, whether there was a legally applicable speed limit, the extent of any violation, and the degree to which any violation assisted in the big day attempt. I agree what we know so far raises reasonable suspicions that there was a violation, but I'm withholding final judgment until I know more facts.
