• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Magpie taxonomy (1 Viewer)

any recent work or suggestions on splitting the Eurasian Jay? Going through Birds of East Asia and the new Collin's guide, several of the forms (Japanese, Brandt's, and North Africa) appear to be pretty distinctive. Do we know if there are any vocal differences between these forms?
 
Garrulus glandarius

any recent work or suggestions on splitting the Eurasian Jay?
Not aware of anything recently. Monroe & Sibley 1993 lists the following as "treated as species by others or displaying characteristics that suggest possible species status" [groupings also recognised by Madge 2009 (HBW14)]:
  • G (g) glandarius - Eurasian Jay (incl rufitergum, hibernicus, fasciatus, ichnusae, corsicanus, albipectus, graecus, ferdinandi, cretorum, glaszneri)
  • G (g) cervicalis - Black-crowned Jay (incl whitakeri, minor)
  • G (g) atricapillus - Black-capped Jay (incl samios, krynicki, 'anatoliae', iphigenia)
  • G (g) hyrcanus - Iranian Jay (monotypic)
  • G (g) brandtii - Brandt's Jay (incl kansuensis, pekingensis)
  • G (g) japonicus - Japanese Jay (incl tokugawae, hiugaensis, orii)
  • G (g) bispecularis - Himalayan Jay (incl sinensis, taivanus, interstinctus, oatesi)
  • G (g) leucotis - White-faced Jay (incl haringtoni)
Richard
 
How about Eurasian Nutcracker? I believe the W Himalayan form is sometimes regarded as a separate species (Large Spotted).

The form in Taiwan (owstoni) looks really different from mainland Asian birds (almost unspotted, gingery brown), although I recall reading that birds in adjacent parts of mainland China are somewhat similar.

Has to be an armchair tick in there somewhere!
 
Spotted Nutcracker

How about Eurasian Nutcracker? I believe the W Himalayan form is sometimes regarded as a separate species (Large Spotted).

The form in Taiwan (owstoni) looks really different from mainland Asian birds (almost unspotted, gingery brown), although I recall reading that birds in adjacent parts of mainland China are somewhat similar.

Has to be an armchair tick in there somewhere!
Nucifraga multipunctata is recognised as a species by Rasmussen & Anderton 2005 (Birds of S Asia: 'Larger-spotted Nutcracker'), Madge 2009 (HBW14: 'Kashmir Nutcracker'), and IOC ('Large-spotted Nutcracker').

Perhaps the southern hemispila group (incl macella, interdicta, owstoni) also warrants further study...?

Collar 2004 (Endemic subspecies of Taiwan birds – first impressions) concluded that owstoni was a 'well-marked subspecies', but not a 'possible full species'.

Richard
 
Last edited:
Richard

Thanks for that. I think it may have been the Collar paper I read which suggests that owstoni is similar to adjacent forms in mainland China.

To somebody who is familiar with Eurasian / Spotted Nutcracker from Europe and the Himalayas, it's hard to believe that it is the same species as the birds in Taiwan!

Cheers
Duncan
 
Can I just check that the Pica pica bottanensis is still a sub species and not a full one yet, as James Eaton has a photo of one.
 
Himalayan Magpie

Can I just check that the Pica pica bottanensis is still a sub species and not a full one yet, as James Eaton has a photo of one.
It isn't recognised as a species by any significant authorities.

Ebels 2003. Speciation in Pica magpies. Dutch Birding 25(2): 103–116.
Himalayan Magpie Pica (pica) bottanensis
... It is very large (the largest taxon), with a very long wing and a relatively short tail, and is extensively dull black; these characters may justify specific status. However, intermediates with anderssoni reportedly occur in the north-east of the range and the characters of bottanensis are generally similar to those of P p pica. The case for specific status seems rather weak.
 
Last edited:
Cyanopica/Pica

Forthcoming...

Zhang, Song, Qu, Alström, Ramos, Xing, Ericson, Fjeldså, Wang, Yang, Kristin, Shestopalov, Choe & Lei (in press). Comparative phylogeography of two widespread magpies: Importance of habitat preference and breeding behavior on genetic structure in China. Mol Phylogenet Evol. [abstract]

[Iberian Azure-winged Magpie Cyanopica (cyanus) cooki is recognised as a distinct species by IOC, HBW and Dutch Birding.]
 
Last edited:
Zhang et al

Forthcoming...
Zhang, Song, Qu, Alström, Ramos, Xing, Ericson, Fjeldså, Wang, Yang, Kristin, Shestopalov, Choe & Lei (in press). Comparative phylogeography of two widespread magpies: Importance of habitat preference and breeding behavior on genetic structure in China. Mol Phylogenet Evol. [abstract]
Published online today: Mol Phylogenet Evol. [abstract]
 
So, does the full text contain any conclusions not covered in the abstract? It sounds like they think the two populations of AwM should continue being one species?

Niels
 
Zhang et al 2012 pdf

Zhang, Song, Qu, Alström, Ramos, Xing, Ericson, Fjeldså, Wang, Yang, Kristin, Shestopalov, Choe & Lei (in press). Comparative phylogeography of two widespread magpies: Importance of habitat preference and breeding behavior on genetic structure in China. Mol Phylogenet Evol. [abstract]
Mol Phylogenet Evol 65(2): 562–572. [pdf]
 
TiF Update June 20
Oriental Magpie, Pica bottanensis, including andersoni and serica has been split from Eurasian Magpie, Pica pica based on Lee et al. (2003), Kryukov et al. (2004), Haring et al. (2007a), and Zhang et al. (2012). The race camtschatica remains in Eurasian Magpie.
 
Eurasian Magpie

Barcoding Japanese birds: Corvidae
Pica (pica) serica – Oriental Magpie
(See Lee et al. 2003 [pdf], Kryukov et al. 2004 [pdf], Haring et al. 2007 [pdf], Zhang et al. 2012 [pdf].)
The SE divergent group here includes sequences from Japan (Hokkaido), Korea, Primorsky (extreme SE Russia), and China (the Xinjiang sequence here is surprising, though--compare to Zhang et al. 2012: they had "western" hapotypes in Xinjiang); sequences from further N, and as far E as Kamchatka (camschatica) are identical to nominate pica.
Note that bottanensis Delessert, 1840, if part of the SE group (would make sense geographically), would have priority over serica Gould, 1845.
TiF Update June 20
Oriental Magpie, Pica bottanensis, including andersoni and serica has been split from Eurasian Magpie, Pica pica based on Lee et al. (2003), Kryukov et al. (2004), Haring et al. (2007a), and Zhang et al. (2012). The race camtschatica remains in Eurasian Magpie.
Related...

Ebels 2003. Speciation in Pica magpies. Dutch Birding 25(2): 103–116.

[van den Berg 2014 (Dutch Birding bird names) treats Maghreb Magpie P (p) mauritanica and 'Asir/Arabian Magpie P (p) asirensis as distinct species. The latter is also recognised by Madge 2009 (HBW 14).]
 
Last edited:
(Dutch Birding bird names) treats Maghreb Magpie P (p) mauritanica and 'Asir/Arabian Magpie P (p) asirensis as distinct species. The latter is also recognised by Madge 2009 (HBW 14).]

Mike Jennings counsels caution on voice differences when considering Asir Magpie, based on his considerable field experience. There is the possibility of an expedition by in-country birders in the near future, but note that the population may be as low as 125bp in a seemingly relentless decline (Jennings 2010)
MJB
Jennings, MC. 2010. Fauna of Arabia, Vol 25. Atlas of the Breeding Birds of Arabia.
 
The wonders of Our mother earths use of recombinant plasmids never stops amazing me . She is so very creative . Such a splendid artist .
 
Kryukov, Spiridonova, Mori, Lobkov, Redkin, Haring. 2015. Geographic isolation and phylogeography of the magpie Pica pica. Page 45 in Kartavtsev, Katugin (Eds.). Modern Achievements in Population, Evolutionary, and Ecological Genetics : International Symposium, Vladivostok. Vladivostok & Vostok Marine Biological Station, September 1–10, 2015 : Program & Abstracts. Vladivostok. [pdf here]

The Eurasian magpie P. pica is a convenient model for phylogeographic and microevolution studies. It has high population number, wide Holarctic range and several peripheral isolates. Complete Control Region of mtDNA, 1,328 bp, was sequenced for 111 samples of 9 subspecies: P. p. fennorum, P. p. pica, P. p. bactriana, P. p. leucoptera, P. p. camtschatica, P. p. jankowskii, P. p. serica, P. p. mauritanica, and P. p. hudsonia. The phylogenetic network clearly illustrates the geographic distribution of haplotypes. One major group represents all European and Siberian subspecies, without any major haplotype and geographic affinity. The haplotype of Kamchatka differs from that clade by 19 and more substitutions. Its homogeneity reflects unambiguous founder effect or bottleneck of Kamchatka isolated population. The clade of P.p.serica and P.p.jankowskii representing samples from South Russian Far East, Japan and Korea, is separated from the western group by at least 66 substitutions. In total, this group is characterized by high nucleotide and haplotype diversity and besides it is subdivided into two subgroups. Yet, there is no clear geographic pattern. It is notable that even much diverged haplotypes were found at the same locality. The population of Kyushu Island introduced ca 300 years ago from Korea is very homogeneous due to founder effect. The other Japanese population of Hokkaido appeared first time 30 years ago, but is rather variable. It supposedly was originated from Primorsky krai population which is very heterogeneous itself. Divergence by mtDNA haplogroups which was described above corresponds well to differences in the magpie phenotypes and bioacoustic features, so mitochondrial and nuclear data prove to be in a good accordance. Taxonomic revision should be conducted in purpose to unite several subspecies. In majority of cases presented, genetic distinctness of the haplogroups may be explained by geographic isolation with further accumulation of mutations.
 
Pica pica

Kryukov A.P., Spiridonova L.N., Mori S., Arkhipov V.Y., Red'kin Y.A., Goroshko O.A., Lobkov E.G. & Haring E., 2017. Deep phylogeographic breaks in magpie Pica pica across the Holarctic: concordance with bioacoustics and phenotypes. Zool. Sci. Early view

Abstract

We examined sequences of the mitochondrial control region in magpies (Pica pica) from the entire distribution range and found deep genetic splits into four major lineages: (1) group West (Europe-Siberia), (2) group East (southern Far East), (3) P. p. mauritanica (North Africa), and (4) P. p. hudsonia (North America). These lineages show a geographic pattern corresponding to known subspecies or subspecies groups. Genetic variation within the widely distributed group West is low and neutrality tests supported a recent expansion scenario. The haplotypes from Kamchatka, representing a separated sublineage with clear affinity to the European-Siberian group, are almost identical, implying a recent bottleneck. Group East contained two subclades without clear geographic pattern, presumably due to admixing of populations that had diverged in Pleistocene refuges. The homogeneity of the Kyushu population supports historical reports of introduction of the species from Korea. In contrast, the high variation in the recently established Hokkaido population might be supported by ongoing invasion from several populations of the Far Eastern mainland. Bioacoustic data based on chatter call differentiate groups of subspecies and reflect phylogeographic patterns, i.e., mitochondrial lineages. Furthermore, we report the fast spreading of P. p. jankowskii towards the west along the upper Amur River, and a slower shifting of P. p. leucoptera in the opposite direction thus yielding a new contact zone. Overall, our data support a scenario of divergence in geographic isolation, but the ongoing expansion of distribution ranges may lead to major changes in phylogeographic patterns.

Here
 
Warning! This thread is more than 2 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top