Malta: Unparalleled slaughter of migrant birds of prey (1 Viewer)

[maltatruth]

agree 100% with Crimson Topaz, these crimes must be fought and discussed without nationalism.......justice in Malta can take some time but be assured that penalties will be severe.....

 

[John Cantelo]

John i'm afraid you miss my point completely. Besides this is not the forum to discuss these matters. All I said was that I wouldn't resort to calling a whole nation names.
As to my comments being ill-informed, spurious and slurring, i'm sorry, all one has to do is pick up a newspaper.

And you miss mine. If this was not the forum to mention these points then why did you do so? To anyone well versed in these matters (i.e. sociology/social trends which I happen to teach) your response 'one only has to pick up a newspaper' is simply comic,

John

 

[Jos Stratford]

In malta only few numbers of illegal hunting is going about. I go birdwatching almost every morning and i never saw a raptor being shot.

Might I politely direct you to this website.

Sorry, you live on a small island where raptor persecution is endemic, witnessed by countless persons throughout the migration period.

 

[Kestrel21]

You can all see what is the problem with the hunting community, they just deny that the shooting of protected species is widespread, why dont the law abiding hunters speak out the truth instead of hiding it, maybe because these law abiding hunters are very few if at all?

I wonder were Znigie goes birdwatching? this weekend my birdwatching sessions icluded a wounded kestrel that had to be put down by a vet, a heron with dangling leg and missing primaries whilst other birdwatchers saw a short toed eagle being shot down yesterday.....any ways the general public knows what the truth is, hopefully those who care will voice their dissaproval against this.

 

[Martin Thomas]

Youre not being fair... In malta only few numbers of illegal hunting is going about. Believe it or not its true. I go birdwatching almost every morning and i never saw a raptor being shot.

<snip> [/COLOR]

I've spoken directly to monitors who have been at the raptor camps there are are more than just a few shooters involved in illegal activity! One gun shop alone sells in excess of 300,000 cartridges for the annual kill-fest.

We indeed have persecution of raptors in this country but we don't have the wholesale slaughter that occurs on such an unpredented scale as in Malta.

In simple words, there are no excuses, here or there.

 

[TJW]

I've spoken directly to monitors who have been at the raptor camps there are are more than just a few shooters involved in illegal activity! One gun shop alone sells in excess of 300,000 cartridges for the annual kill-fest.

We indeed have persecution of raptors in this country but we don't have the wholesale slaughter that occurs on such an unpredented scale as in Malta.

In simple words, there are no excuses, here or there.

Don't confuse the legal hunting of species such as quail and turtle doves (which are the primary targets of all hunters in Malta) with the illegal shooting of other species (raptors,storks, bee-eaters, hoopoes, swifts, kingfishers, herons, egrets).

 

[Jos Stratford]

Don't confuse the legal hunting of species such as quail and turtle doves (which are the primary targets of all hunters in Malta) with the illegal shooting of other species (raptors,storks, bee-eaters, hoopoes, swifts, kingfishers, herons, egrets).

Could you request the Maltese shooters to bear this in mind, seems they are not only blind (post 54), but also a little confused as to how to distinquish a Quail from all those other species you list.

 

[Martin Thomas]

Don't confuse the legal hunting of species such as quail and turtle doves (which are the primary targets of all hunters in Malta) with the illegal shooting of other species (raptors,storks, bee-eaters, hoopoes, swifts, kingfishers, herons, egrets).

I wasn't. I was referring to eye witness accounts of observers where illegal killing was taking place and it wasn't confined to a handful of avian murderers.

 

[TJW]

I wasn't. I was referring to eye witness accounts of observers where illegal killing was taking place and it wasn't confined to a handful of avian murderers.

The reference to the number of cartridges sold in one shop is not relevant to the amount of poaching.

 

[Martin Thomas]

The reference to the number of cartridges sold in one shop is not relevant to the amount of poaching.

Just one cartridge used to make an illegal kill makes it very relevant in my opinion and it's certainly relevant to the amount of wholesale murder that takes place in the name of legal 'sport'. You may recall that last year a ranger was shot in the face by a Maltese hunter whilst on his own property. I suppose it's little consolation to him that the cartridge used was intended to legally kill birds?

To reiterate, my main point is that from people who have witnessed the slaughter (or poaching if you prefer) the problem is not confined to a small number of individuals but is widespread. Countless hunters who were seen legally shooting unprotected species were also seen shooting protected birds but frustratingly evidence couldn't be gathered due to a variety of reasons including access, collusion and fear.

 

[John Cantelo]

The reference to the number of cartridges sold in one shop is not relevant to the amount of poaching.

Actually I think it might well have some relevance. The figure quoted certainly gives some idea of the sheer volume of shooting being carried out in the benighted Maltese islands. I'm not sure how much of a marksman the average Maltese hunter is, but I'd assume that they only shoot when they have a good chance of hitting the target. Even being pessimistic and assuming that the hunters miss 2/3 of the time ad you still have 100,000 birds being shot with cartridges from this one outlet. Multiply this by the number of shops selling ammunition (any figures?) and you would, I suspect, rapidly run out of legal quarry species.

Given the prevelence of reports of persistent illegal hunting on Malta (from visitors & residents alike, birdwatchers and non-birdwatchers), the equally familiar litany of reserves being vandalised, the aggressive attitude of the hunting fraternity towards conservation (in person and on the internet), the blatant disregard for the law these characters have displayed (now and in the past), the arrogance with which they carry out their 'sport', etc., etc., then I would suggests that a extraordinarily high sales of cartridges may reasonably be regarded as relevant circumstantial evidence of widespread and sustained abuse,

John

 

[TJW]

Actually I think it might well have some relevance. The figure quoted certainly gives some idea of the sheer volume of shooting being carried out in the benighted Maltese islands. I'm not sure how much of a marksman the average Maltese hunter is, but I'd assume that they only shoot when they have a good chance of hitting the target. Even being pessimistic and assuming that the hunters miss 2/3 of the time ad you still have 100,000 birds being shot with cartridges from this one outlet. Multiply this by the number of shops selling ammunition (any figures?) and you would, I suspect, rapidly run out of legal quarry species.

Given the prevelence of reports of persistent illegal hunting on Malta (from visitors & residents alike, birdwatchers and non-birdwatchers), the equally familiar litany of reserves being vandalised, the aggressive attitude of the hunting fraternity towards conservation (in person and on the internet), the blatant disregard for the law these characters have displayed (now and in the past), the arrogance with which they carry out their 'sport', etc., etc., then I would suggests that a extraordinarily high sales of cartridges may reasonably be regarded as relevant circumstantial evidence of widespread and sustained abuse,

John

I bow to your greater knowledge.

 

[John Cantelo]

I bow to your greater knowledge.

That's very generous of you. However, I don't think that I have any 'greater knowledge', but I do hope my logic has merit and is reasonably convincing,

John

 

[Gallina]

And you miss mine. If this was not the forum to mention these points then why did you do so? To anyone well versed in these matters (i.e. sociology/social trends which I happen to teach) your response 'one only has to pick up a newspaper' is simply comic,

John

Being so well versed in sociology and social trends and a teacher at that, then it follows that you are a rather intelligent person and therefore should know why I brought it up in the first place. All one has to do is to re-read our original exchange of posts. You know full well what the thinking behind my original statement was as I am sure all the readers here do. I wanted to speak in Malta's defense. I stated that it is wrong to criticise a whole nation because of the wrongdoings of some. I then drew an analogy with the illegalities and immoral things that go on in the UK and asked if it would be right to criticise the whole British nation. That was the logic behind it. Was there anything wrong with what I said? I think not.
Also, my comment about this not being the forum was intended because, as a guest and newcomer to this forum, I didn't want to seem rude and intrusive and felt that readers here would like to stick to the illegal hunting issue without getting bogged down in other debates.
You, on the other hand, don't seem keen on moving away from this debate and keep bringing up issues and arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with what I originally said and I can therefore only conclude that you are doing it in an attempt to show off this intellect you so luckily possess. I stand by what I had originally stated.

 

[Gallina]

I've spoken directly to monitors who have been at the raptor camps there are are more than just a few shooters involved in illegal activity! One gun shop alone sells in excess of 300,000 cartridges for the annual kill-fest.

We indeed have persecution of raptors in this country but we don't have the wholesale slaughter that occurs on such an unpredented scale as in Malta.

In simple words, there are no excuses, here or there.

Wrong. You are assuming that these cartridges are sold for the 'annual kill-fest' yet seem to be forgetting clay pigeon shooting which is a very popular pastime here in Malta. I called a friend of mine who owns one of Malta's leading shooting shops, incidentally, to answer John's post, there are around 5 meaningful gun shops on the island. My friend confirmed that he sells nowhere next to the figures being bandied about here and that almost 2/3rds of his sales are for clay pigeon shooting. I now leave it up to John to work out the maths.

 

[Martin Thomas]

Wrong. You are assuming that these cartridges are sold for the 'annual kill-fest' yet seem to be forgetting clay pigeon shooting which is a very popular pastime here in Malta. I called a friend of mine who owns one of Malta's leading shooting shops, incidentally, to answer John's post, there are around 5 meaningful gun shops on the island. My friend confirmed that he sells nowhere next to the figures being bandied about here and that almost 2/3rds of his sales are for clay pigeon shooting. I now leave it up to John to work out the maths.

Not wrong. My figures are from a police representative who conducted an investigation on the island and are for the period immediately preceding the 'hunting' season. It may not be representative of your friend's shop but how can you speak for the other outlets? Someone, some where on the island is selling ammunition to slaughter birds, legal or otherwise on an ecologically significant scale.

You conveniently ignored my point that even one cartridge used to illegally kill a bird (or shoot at a ranger) is one too many. Perhaps you disagree?

I agree that the Maltese people as a whole shouldn't be judged by the actions of these barbarian killers but I'm afraid until the practice is stopped then it will continue to attract such biases from far and wide.

 

[Jack Dawe]

I'm afraid until the practice is stopped then it will continue to attract such biases from far and wide.

Just as well it does in my opinion. Let us not forget that it is only because of international pressure that any headway (such as it is) is being made at all against this mindless slaughter of Europe's birds. Until pressure was brought to bear the Maltese did nothing on their own account to mend their ways.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I now leave it up to John to work out the maths.

Who gives the toss about the maths Gallina, your country will be treated like the dirt it is until it actually begins to behave like a modern country.

Sidetrack the arguments all you like, the fact is there is blatent disregard of E.U. legislation, that you can not deny. Any bird, be it a protected species or not, is fair game for the morons that sit about on your hillsides to blast away the very birds that elsewhere in Europe simply give pleasure to most persons.

 

[Gallina]

Mr Stratford, your rude comments don't merit an answer. I cannot understand how your views, as can be witnessed from previous posts, are tolerated. Your comments smack of extremism and your want for confrontation is evident. Fortunately that is not how we do things on our civilised island that you deem so dirty.

Mr Thomas, I'd like to start off by saying that I did not 'conveniently' ignore your comment. I am in complete agreement with it and I condemn any form of illegal shooting or violence. Yes, a dead protected bird is a dead protected bird too many.
By 'kill-fest' did you mean of protected birds or did you intend legal quarry too? Honest question.

Oh, and for the whole truth about what is really happening in Malta visit:

http://www.huntinginmalta.org.mt/up...Autumn_-_Supporting_Documents__Statements.pdf

 

[Jos Stratford]

I cannot understand how your views, as can be witnessed from previous posts, are tolerated.

But you understand how the views of hunters can be tolerated when they are in direct contravention of E.U law? And you understand the views of a bunch of hunters coming onto this forum claiming that they never see raptors getting shot?

Sorry if you find my responses rude, it stems from a basic disgust of the behaviour of significant portions of the hunters that reside upon your island, along with a similar disgust that the government does next to nothing, year after year, to curb such action.

Your comments smack of extremism and your want for confrontation is evident.

So be it, confrontation would not be necessary if your country simply abided by E.U. legislation. Your nation receives E.U. money in vast sums, then at the same time basically sticks the two fingers up at the E.U. when it comes to following accepted standards. Yep, that approach is the approach that is likely to breed dislike of your nation.

And as for confrontation, I have not noticed much in the way of charm from the illegal hunters on Malta - quite violent towards those that oppose their illegal activities, no?

Fortunately that is not how we do things on our civilised island that you deem so dirty.

Yep, we all know how the Maltese do things on your island. We can agree to disagree on whether that is dirty or civilised.