Marsh Warbler? or ? - Holme, Norfolk (1 Viewer)

[Penny Clarke]

This possible juv. Marsh Warbler was found by Mike Toms (BTO) and Paul Stanncliffe at Holme on Saturday 20th September and seen by myself, Connor Rand and Paul Laurie.

I managed to take quite a few shots and here are hopefully enough shots to ID it! Taken with Canon 40D with 300 f4 lens and Kenko 1.4 converter. I have not sharpened or enhanced any of the pictures, all straight off the camera.

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated - will probably turn out to be a dodgy reed warbler!

Best Wishes Penny:girl:

 

[Penny Clarke]

5 more pics.....

 

[Penny Clarke]

more pictures.....

 

[Penny Clarke]

Thats it!!!! Well there is loads more, but hopefully this will be enough!

 

[Happisbirder]

Some nice shots Penny. It was obviously a very showy bird! I'm working at the moment so can't look at the pics in depth but my initial feelings are towards Reed. Let's see what the experts have to say...

James

 

[nickderry]

Looks like a reed, quite rich chestnut colouring in areas, and the tertials don't go past the secondaries. Some really nice photos though!

 

[Penny Clarke]

Thank you.

hmmm.........any more ideas please?

 

[BobTag]

Hi Penny,

What made you all think Marsh in the field? I'm struggling to see any features that would make me think it wasn't a Reed?

BT

 

[dan pointon]

I agree. Looks fine for Reed to me, very rusty brown overal tone, lacking any real olive tones, pale tips to the primaries are hardly extensive as would be expected in Marsh Warbler.

D

 

[CAU]

It's probably a too difficult bird for me to id. 1cy Marsh Warblers are pretty similarly coloured as Reed Warblers (lacking olive tones), and the longest tertial is not always longer than the secondaries. Compare to these
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=pirpa1091997234&lang=eng
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=pirpa1091794363&lang=eng

The bird doesn't look too long billed, but the claws look quite dark in some photos. The primary tips could fit either species.

 

[Connor Rand]

I agree. Looks fine for Reed to me, very rusty brown overal tone, lacking any real olive tones, pale tips to the primaries are hardly extensive as would be expected in Marsh Warbler.

D

the bird looked slightly yellowy in the field (far more so and far less rusty than in the photos). Surely the short stubby bill, facial expression, darkish tertials and primary tips (although presumably within the varitaion of Reed) are all pro-Marsh, even in some/most features are pro-Reed. Certainly doesnt seem clear-cut and probably best left unidentified...

 

[HH75]

Hi all,
A surprisingly(??) difficult bird for sure, given that the shots are quite good, but I would be inclined to lean somewhat towards Reed:
-the emargination on the third primary is hard to pin down exactly, but seems to fall far closer to the tip of the innermost primary (P10) than P7, which would favour Reed.
-the claws seem to be dark, and perhaps a bit longer and more curved than those of most Marsh.
-the primary projection, while possible for either species, doesn't seem as long as on 'easier' Marsh.
-as a supporting feature, the fact that the eyering seems more obvious than the supercilium (supraloral, as such) would also, on average, suit Reed more than Marsh, but there is much variation.
Did the bird call at all...?
Regards,
Harry

 

[Connor Rand]

Hi all,
A surprisingly(??) difficult bird for sure, given that the shots are quite good, but I would be inclined to lean somewhat towards Reed:
-the emargination on the third primary is hard to pin down exactly, but seems to fall far closer to the tip of the innermost primary (P10) than P7, which would favour Reed.
-the claws seem to be dark, and perhaps a bit longer and more curved than those of most Marsh.
-the primary projection, while possible for either species, doesn't seem as long as on 'easier' Marsh.
-as a supporting feature, the fact that the eyering seems more obvious than the supercilium (supraloral, as such) would also, on average, suit Reed more than Marsh, but there is much variation.
Did the bird call at all...?
Regards,
Harry

Thanks very much for your well thought-out comments Harry - keep them coming please everyone, certainly been very educational!

 

[Connor Rand]

Did the bird call at all...?
Regards,
Harry

Bird never called - interestingly my notes suggest the bottom/base of the claws were more of a pale-yellow.

Cheers,

Connor

 

[Connor Rand]

pale tips to the primaries are hardly extensive as would be expected in Marsh Warbler.

D

Really, even in a 1st year bird? I have to say some of the pics I've seen of Marsh Warblers in the hand show less extensive pale primary tips...

C

 

[hannu]

1-cy bird indeed, I'd favor NOW more Marsh W....

 

[jforgham]

Picture 2 seems to give a hint of light pink/yellowness to the leg, albeit only the left leg!! Also, clearly visible here are the pale primary tips favouring immature autumnal marsh, but a hard one to call. Great photos by the way. Should make interesting reading as this one develops
regards,
Jono

 

[Connor Rand]

Picture 2 seems to give a hint of light pink/yellowness to the leg, albeit only the left leg!! Also, clearly visible here are the pale primary tips favouring immature autumnal marsh, but a hard one to call. Great photos by the way. Should make interesting reading as this one develops
regards,
Jono

It was very interesting how the colour tones of the bird, including the leg-colour, changed in different lights...

 

[Steve Waite]

I agree, it is certainly a Marsh Warbler, or a Reed Warbler..... tricky one! Give me a spring adult any day, but a dodgy juv!?? Hmmmm....

This should turn out to be a very educational thread, cracking photos.

 

[JANJ]

I would suggest Marsh/Reed for this one. The colour tone noted as far less rusty in real life according to Connor. As Harry, I searched for the emargination lengt, but it´s pretty difficult to se where it falls properly.
Difficult to judge claw colour, leg colour in contrast to yellow soles.
Bill looks Reed like thin and long, but the mild Marsh face expression is evident over angry Reed.
So for me Marsh/Reed, safe side.

Check this 1cy Marsh, and note the bill size, p3 emargination and so on:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=23299

and it´s feet - with less contrast in claws against soles:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=23298

1cy Reed, note bill size and angry looking:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=23292

Note dark claws, great contrast against soles, angry:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=23291

Marsh to the left and Reed, 1cy.

http://www.bingsmarken.se/separation_juvenila.htm

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind...&order=lisays_paiva+DESC&sel=&sel=2&sel=&sel=

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind...country=&place=&order=lisays_paiva+DESC&sel=2

JanJ