Microphone for mounting on a hotshoe (2 Viewers)

[TheGiantHogweed]

Hi.

I'm looking into getting an FZ330 camera. One thing I dislike about many of my videos from my TZ100 and FZ82 (when i had it) is wind noise and the noise from the internal parts of the cameras. They also lacked a bit of depth to the lower frequencies due to the size.

I'm unsure exactly what sort of microphone I would want. I'm not after a dramatic improvement in sound quality. Just something that can allow me to cut out wind noise more than internal microphones allow.

From reading around, it does look like shotgun microphones would be good in some ways for me. As they do to some degree focus on the subject that your camera is facing. However, most of them I think take some sound from behind them as well if I'm correct, which isn't ideal but may still be much better than the built in microhpones. The biggest problem with shotgun microphones for me is that most look to use XLR. The FZ330 has a 3.5mm input. I know it will be easy to get hold of an adapter. In my case, it would be easy to make one as i work with xlr cables at work. However, I would much rather it would be possible to get a microphone that has a similar function that has an option to go to a 3.5mm jack.

I find the sound quality is actually pretty good on many of the lumix cameras, but wind noise is the big issue. I would want the money to go towards reducing that effect, but wouldn't want to spend over £50 if possible

Any suggestions would be appreciated.



Thanks.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Have you looked at any of the mics specifically designed for videographers/bloggers?

Something like the Sennheiser MKE400 has a built in hot shoe mount and a 3.5mm jack. The mic is actually enclosed and mounted in a suspension system and comes supplied with a fur windshield, so handling and wind noise should be less of an issue. The mic has three sensitivity settings, with the highest setting equivalent to a greater sensitivity than many large shotguns. I suspect on analysis it is probably noisier than a true shotgun as I think the high sensitivity is just applying electronic gain to the set sensitivity mic. It is not as directional as a proper large shotgun, as this feature is generally governed by the length of the interference tube (i.e the length of the mic).

Rode also do video mics that are worth looking at.

Besides the issue with XLR cables, I think that supporting a large shotgun from a hot shoe plate may not be that easy or successful, and it would make the camera quite cumbersome. It would probably be best to support a large mic separately. I think for more professional results videographers tend to use a separate sound recorder and mic, and then use a time code generator to sync video pictures with sound.

Regards

Jon Bryant

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Ah, didn’t see you comment regarding price point. The MKE400 is well over £50, so may not be an appropriate suggestion. I think most video mics that have built in suspension, come with a wind cover and have adjustable sensitivity (so presumably a built in preamp) will be over this budget.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Yea, i mentioned many things that would be nice to have but in reality, i don't need them and they will be too expensive. My main improvement that i want is an ability to reduce wind noise - and have more weight to the lower frequencies. It is likely that even basic dedicated microphones should be better than internal ones. Also preferably better stereo separation. I've seen some pictures of some sony cameras that have what looks like a pretty small microphone with a wind muff that just attatches to the hotshoe.

I don't think I'm fussed on having a load of manual controls. I don't even need significantly better sound really, just less wind noise. I feel it must be possible to get something. Even my £30 samzon go mic while it is for computer use, that has incredible sound for the money. So I feel thete must be some basic hotshoe micrphones that would suit my needs.

 

[iveljay]

Read around, there are several reviews covering this subject. Typical being The 7 Best On-Camera Microphones for DSLR Cameras. Its American in origin but the links will take you to Amazon UK. I don't use any of the mics in this article, so can't vouch for them, but others seem to be very happy with them.
There are user reviews and answered questions.
One thing to remember is that most (if not all) of the microphones in the inexpensive category, in fact even in the expensive category will be mono. So your comments for better stereo seperation wont be satisfied by these. Decent directional stereo mics tend to be expensive.

 

[opisska]

I've got a Rode Videomic Go and that does exactly what you are looking for. It really gets distant owl hoots nicely. But a word of warning - it hasn't really left its case (which is a kitchen container, you really need to get a better case than what they sell it in) for a long time - it's too fragile to just carry around already attached on my shoulder and when I hear a sound to record, it's too slow to attach - and my smartphone actually records sound pretty comparable to it (mich better than the DSLR itself). Also it faces heavy competition from my actual flash for the use of the horseshoe. I know that you said you need it for videos, but just a warning to think about.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Thanks for the suggestions.

The rode videomic go does look reasonable. Not keen on how it isn't kept more discreet by an all black finish. To me it somehow looks cheaper having a bright red holder and cable. However, I'm a bit surprised that you imply it sounds similar to your smartphone, unless I'm misunderstanding. I would have thought a microphone like that should pick up significantly more low end than any phone microphone.

I am a little surprised about the lack of stereo for cheaper microphones. Why does the 3.5mm jack have 2 poles if they are mono? Given some of the videos I've recorded in my garden of birds flying to feeders, it is quite some benefit being able to hear what side they are at when they come and go. The stereo effect is pretty effecting on my TZ100, but it just lacks low end and as all microphones like this, they are terrible on a breezy day.

However, wind noise is certainly the main issue so I think I could afford to lose out on stereo. I also would much rather keep size pretty small too. As an example, my samson go mic is tiny and sounds great, but that is a PC USB mic and would be bad in the wind. I could go a little bigger, but not by much.


EDIT

One other thing that is currently not a problem is audio interference. I can see this being an issue with an analogue microphone. The internal microphone is fine regarding this - in a quiet area with no wind, it is quiet. Many youtube videos of this type of microphones, even when praising them, to me a lot have a horrendous amount of squeaking, buzzing and other interference, even when outdoors. I'm wondering if this is related to the pre-amps on the cameras used. I maybe would be better off getting one that is powered by batteries to help with this, but it does add more to deal with.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

I think you need to be careful about what the mic is designed for. The majority of cheapish on camera mics are designed for vlogging. This means that the sound source will be a human voice a couple of meters in front of the camera, so the mic capsule does not need to be that sensitive. I can’t find a spec for the audio and mics for the FZ330 camera, but when I was doing a search for a phone mic, many of the options were less or no more sensitive than the phone mic itself! This is one reason I initially suggested the MKE400, which is outside the price range, but has sensitivity settings that are OK for wildlife/birds.

If you have a weak recording, then the signal to noise ratio will be high, so when you crank up the volume you will get an audible hiss - perhaps this is what you are referring to when you mention interference. Squeaks seem more likely to be a bad connection (perhaps the cable was knocked by the user), or handling noise. The suspension should try to isolate this, but it is not fail safe that when handling the camera, noise is totally prevented from cause vibration or travel direct to the mic. Some vlogs are obviously recorded on a camera on a tripod in a fixed position, which would obviously get rid of the later problem and make a better quality recording.

Regarding stereo, the issue is that stereo needs two mic capsules, so the price will increase accordingly. You also need the mics to be orientated, but in a close configuration suitable to fit on a camera, so the mounting is a bit more complicated. Then each mic needs wind protection. There are stereo options, but they are well outside your price range. As I say, most cheapish mics are designed for vlogging, and in this basis stereo is irrelevant - generally it is one person sat centrally in front of the camera.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Forgot to say that wind is a big problem for sound recording in any case. Even if you can protect the mic, there is often motion of the vegetation that causes a lot of unwanted sound. Wind whistling past and over objects will generate sound that will be picked up by the mic. The unfortunate only real solution (unless you specifically want to hear the roar of the wind) is to restrict trying to record to when the weather is relatively calm.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Finally…

Not sure you can really compare your USB mic. Generally the closer you get the mic to a subject the better. I remember reading one sound engineer’s comments that ‘even the cheapest lavalier mic placed close to the source will sound better than the most expensive shotgun placed further away’. This is reflected in what we see on TV - news readers wear lavalier (lapel) mics and are not recorded with a shotgun or parabola on the other side of the studio. Even when outdoor reporters use direction mics on boom poles, the mic is normal thrust directly in front of the person they are interviewing, so only 1 or 2m from the sound source. When we see behind the scenes and the making of TV programmed, the sound engineer often has a directional mic on a boom pole held over the subject, just out of camera shot, but again as close as possible as they can get to the sound source without ruining the filming.

The whole problem with wildlife recording is that getting close with a mic can be difficult (and sometimes virtually impossible for birds in tree tops etc). We are therefore pushing the bounds of what mics are generally designed for.

Another solution for recording garden birds would be to think whether you could place a recorder (perhaps even your phone) close to the bird feeder and leave it recording, then sync the sound with your video. This is much harder to do when you are less familiar with the settings and may not be able to predict where birds may congregate or feed.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Thanks for this information.

Well, I'm actually relatively happy with the audio quality of my TZ100. I don't need more depth to the the sound, but it would be nice to have. But from youtube videos, it is obvious that with a wind muff, even cheap microphones can reduce wind noise significantly. When with my camera, I've sometimes tried to put some fabric over the microphones to reduce the wind noise. If I'm happy enough with the sound quality of these, (other than the wind) what sort of option may be best to make an improvement in this one area? I can accept losing out on stereo if i need to.

You are right that I need to be careful. I have realised that with the sort of thing I'm doing, i will likely want it to record everything around me and be very sensitive, which is basically what the cameras microphones already do. On my FZ82 that I no longer have, I did do a video of a rooks nest that was over 100m away and when there was no wind, it did impressively pic them up. But the quality of those microphones were pretty poor compared to my TZ100 despite the camera being larger.

What I meant my interference was indeed that. I occasionally do some recordings by my computer, and some mentioned that some cheaper microphones have issues near led lights that dim. I know what they mean as my hifi amplifier has the same problem when I dim an LED strip that is near it. The camera's own microphones don't detect this however.

It is getting to the point that I should try the FZ330 first (which I've now bought 2nd hand for a good price) before purchasing any microphones. While I'm very sensitive and critical about sound, I don't know much about microphones.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

well, I have received the FZ330 and it will take me some time to get used to. The microphones do seem worse than on my TZ100 which surprises me a bit given it is a much bigger camera. The wind noise is very bad even when gentle. I certainly think priority would be reducing wind noise. I don't mind the sound that the wind makes blowing stuff around - as you hear that in reality. The issue is just when you don't hear anything but the wind, which sounds entirely different to when you are there. I could tolerate the microphone picking up other nearby noises (i actually don't mind that). What would a good option be below £50?

Edit:

Although it maybe already is obvious as I am on a bird forum, but that is the main thing I will use it for filming and recording. Either garden or water birds mostly. A lot of which will require being zoomed into the distance. As I've said before, I don't really need much better sound quality than the in built micrphones (which appear to be very sensitive and pick up everything), that is just a preference. I usually notice that I can improve things a little if i cup my hands over the microphone holes to help cut down wind noise. But surely there must be something out there that is just a simple 3.5mm microphone that can help reduce wind noise that bit. Not that I need much better sound quality, but I don't see how any external microphone should be worse than internal ones. As the sound is already pretty good for what I need, that is why I want to limit what I spend. I don't want to find out i end up buying a micrphone that only records close up for example. I know what sound I'm after, but really not sure what sort to get.

 

[ermine]

I don't really need much better sound quality than the in built micrphones (which appear to be very sensitive and pick up everything), that is just a preference. I usually notice that I can improve things a little if i cup my hands over the microphone holes to help cut down wind noise. But surely there must be something out there that is just a simple 3.5mm microphone that can help reduce wind noise that bit. Not that I need much better sound quality, but I don't see how any external microphone should be worse than internal ones. As the sound is already pretty good for what I need, that is why I want to limit what I spend.

In that case, use the mics you have got Rycote Micro Windjammers on your existing camera microphones could be your friend. Obvs there you are paying Rycote prices, though £12 would be in budget, but a bit of inspection of their approach shows you how you could DIY something like that for less with double-sided tape, foam and fur.

The trick is to get a little bit of still air around the mic itself. You can do that with open cell foam, and the fur is there to break up the airflow - put the foam in the fur. ISTR that is how micro windjammers work.

Garden enviromesh and horticultural fleece can take you a long way, though not as good as the Windjammer fur.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I like the idea of these, but they seem to be out of stock at the site you link, and the store that is most local to me that is one of their authorised dealers seems to have a dead link. Can't seem to find them sold anywhere - yet.

 

[ermine]

Yeah, looks like Rycote have been getting out ot the inbuilt mic wind protection. They used to do a neat range for camcorders called gustbuster, but I guess everyone uses a phone or a DSLR nowadays. Having said that, you could busk it using the same idea and something like these lavalier windjammers with the judicious use of a hole punch on the back double sided tape. Ebay suppliers still seem to be in this biz, however. I used "ebay camera internal mic wind protection" as a search string, so I guess "camera internal mic wind protection" is the operative phrase. Good luck - at least the price is sort of right and in budget, though your camera ends up looking sort of funky, but the birds don't care

 

[ermine]

FWIW I have used a gustbuster on a camcorder, and it greatly improved the wind interference. Nowhere near as good as a ME66 with a Rycote Softie but a very worthwhile improvement. subject to the overall crappiness of camera sound - AGC and the cheapest noisy electrets made in Shenzen. As Jon said up-thread, most consumer audio gizmos are meant to be used in your face so sensitivity and noise aren't that great.

You can experiment whether this will do you any good with some cotton wool makeup pads and Sellotape. As long as if you put the pads up to your mouth and can exhale through them, they are open cell enough to get a feel of whether this will work for you, you will probably lose a little bit of top end but that beats wind rumble any day. The commercial versions will be better, fur is better to break up gusts, the cell size will be optimised to not roll off high frequencies and you will get a better seal with double sided tape, but you can't beat the price of what you have already!

 

[iveljay]

Rycote now seems to be found in the less amateur oriented suppliers. Trouble is the price is even more these days. CVP are very good and were helpful to me in the past.
https://cvp.com/product/rycote_065501/department/audio

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Thanks for all this info.

Amazon.co.uk

These look slightly better value, but can't find any reviews. The trouble with the FZ330 is that the microphone ports are about 5mm behind the pop-up flash. I'm hoping I would be able to stick something small over them that would at least be able to to reduce wind noise - but not have to remove them every time i want the flash.

 

[WildPhotographer]

Thanks for all this info.

Amazon.co.uk

These look slightly better value, but can't find any reviews. The trouble with the FZ330 is that the microphone ports are about 5mm behind the pop-up flash. I'm hoping I would be able to stick something small over them that would at least be able to to reduce wind noise - but not have to remove them every time i want the flash.

The solution is very simple - Rode Microphone (take your pick of stereo or mono), mounted on a cheap pocket tripod, placed under a / the bush and a long extension cable from microphone to camera (a couple of £ on amazon). By being at low level, the microphone will be out of most of the wind.

For all things audio, these guys are superb, knowledgeable and frequently cheaper than amazon: Pinknoise Location Sound Experts - Pro Sound Equipment for Recording on Location | Pinknoise Pro Sound Equipment