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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HH75" data-source="post: 3226989" data-attributes="member: 61">But 'traditional knowledge and field skills' can, with the extra information that we are now collectively possess, enable us to seperate males, at least, of the three proposed species of 'subalpine warbler'. Moltoni's has a diagnostic call, for one, freely given at times. It also overlaps in range with Eastern Subalpine (extensively) and I think there's actual overlap between Moltoni's and Western Subalpine in the north-west of the former's range? If not, they come pretty close anyway. So Moltoni's would seem to qualify as a full species under the traditional understanding of the BSC. Eastern and Western birds have different patterns to T5 (though I concede that there are tricky individuals, know Andrea has referred to such as well as some photos in Svensson's BB paper). None of this is data distilled from DNA analysis in some lab (as if that were a bad thing, maybe it is in DIMW's eyes).Knowledge, by its very nature, cannot be frozen in amber if new facts come to light that contradict aspects. 'Traditional' knowledge also told people that the Earth was flat, for a time, or that the Sun revolved around us...</blockquote>