Need help to upgrade my recording game (4 Viewers)

[Gnome du Jardin]

Hi everyone, first post here!
I'm starting with bird recording and I'm falling in love! Just to test the water before buying equipment, I started with a used Zoom h4n, a Beyerdynamic MCE 86 II shotgun microphones and a Proaim blimp. Lots of fun but the Zoom h4n is a very noisy recorder and it's kind of a problem. I'm looking for a better recorder, but I'm not a rich person so I have to make a wise choice. Can you help me?

-I read everywhere that the Zoom h6 is very noisy, but as I like sometime recording nature sound in stereo, the integrated stereo mic is kind of cool. It will probably be an upgrade from my h4n. And finding one used is relatively easy!
-The Zoom F3 seems to be THE way to go, but in Canada it's kind of expensive, and I would have to buy stereo mic in extra to make stereo recording. And as I start in the hobby, it's kind of a bummer not to learn how to use the gain, etc.
-The Tascam DR-60DMK2 seems really cool, is way cheaper than the Zoom F3 but I never see somebody using it for bird recording. Why?

Anyway, if someone here have some advice, I would like it! Thanks!

 

[delia todd]

Hi Garden Gnome and a warm welcome to you from all the Staff and Moderators.

I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.

 

[KC Foggin]

Just jumping in here to with you a warm welcome to BirdForum

 

[Jon.Bryant]

Hi Gnome,

Possibly a stupid question, but have you determined that the Zoom H4N microphone pre-amps are too noisy for your purposes?

The reason I ask this is that I think the main source of noise in my field recordings (using a variety of recorders but not the H4N) is ambient white noise . If you apply gain to get a good recording level for a bird, then you are also apply gain to this ambient noise as well. Directional mics will filter out some off axis noise, but the filtering is progressively better as frequency increases, and not very good at all for lower frequencies. This is why for the best quality recordings I think you need to be close - you are then applying less gain to everything. There is always the argument about which is more natural for the listener - a 'bird's ear' recording, or a recording of how you as would normally hear the bird sound, but I think professional sound engineers general spend time placing their mics are close as possible to the source.

You can reduce noise in some DAW (Digitial Audio Workstation) software, but the packages with good noise reduction features tend not to be free. I for instance like Steinberg's Spectral Layer's 9, which allows you to do some amazing audio cleanup by first splitting the sound into layers. I have managed to get rid of human voice, tone down noise such as insects buzzing near the mic, get rid of mic pops and ambient cracks and pops, and of course reduce general white noise from recordings - but this software is £257.00 in the UK.

I only reason I mention the need to determine the source of your noise issues, is that I am sure you would be dissapointed, if you purchased a new recorder, but didn't notice a substantial difference in quality.

If you want to learn more about the Tascam DR-60DMK2, then Joop99 recently mentioned using this recorder, so maybe you could open a conversation with him to get his feedback.

 

[Gnome du Jardin]

Thank you all for your warm welcome!
From my different tests, the noise come from the H4n. It's not that terrible, but in the past few weeks, I got enough heart breaking missed opportunity for looking somewhere else!

I'm getting better and better with Audacity, so I can patch some of the problem, but I prefer to put money on a recorder than on a software.

 

[Jon.Bryant]

but I prefer to put money on a recorder than on a software

Then I would personally suggest to invest in a 32bit float recorder, as I consider there are big advantages when recording some bird sounds - basically are you recording a stable(ish) sounds [such as a static singing bird or a dawn chorus], where you may have the capability to assess and adjust gain levels prior to making a recording [for this 16 and 24 bit are both fine], or are you recording a variable sound [such as bird moving around calling or singing], or a transient sound [say a calling bird, or when a bird pops up in front of the mic, sings its head off, then promptly dissapears]. For variable or transient sounds, I think 32 bit float provides real advantages, as you don't have to set levels - you just have to be recording.

32 bit float will not guaranteed a good recording, but it will generally guarantee you have something to work with - the signal won't be clipped of lost below the noise floor. Obviously mic position in relationship to the bird is still important - if a bird comes to close then moves away, then you may end up with a recording that sound like the bird is one one minute perched on your nose, and the next minute at the end of the garden, which would not normally the desired result.

I understand that 32bit float will not teach you the ropes of setting recording levels etc. but I personally think it won't be too many years before most new recorders are 32 bit float - and we forget that we ever used anything else!

If you read any of my other posts, then from my passion for 32 bit float, you will probably think I have shares in the technology [alas, this is not the case].

Hopefully my post will not reawaken the battery argument from other posts - 32 bit recorders generally require more power, which is the main downside (plus the cost of some devices).

Unfortunately the Zoom F3 is probably the cheapest 32 bit float recorder with XLR inputs and phantom power, but this device records in 32bit float only. With some (more expensive) recorders it is an option, so you still have the capability to record in 16 or 24 bit and can enjoy the process of controlling and setting gain levels.

 

[Gnome du Jardin]

Thank you for your advice. As suspected, the upgrade's gonna be expensive

 

[songbirder]

Better recording equipment is definitely the better way. I've recorded hundreds of hours with Zoom equipment, pretty much all stock mics, and they do have self-noise to them that begins to be noticeable once you start recording in quieter places away from anthropogenic noise. With less noise for birds to compete with they sing quieter, and to hear them I need to boost the recording, and that raises up the noise floor...

There are noise reduction plugins out there but I don't find they sound any good for field recordings, as they're meant more for removing background noise from human voices.

I ordered some new mics recently though, a stereo pair of SO.1 Omni mics, which purport to have very low self-noise. Looking forward to see what kind of difference it makes. Though to be clear my goal in field recordings is different than most (from what I can tell!), I'm usually aiming to capture whole environments, so I'm not isolating songs/calls with a parabolic.

One place where money might help though is in your DAW. I've been using Reaper for a few years now, and while there is a learning curve it is much much better than Audacity for a whole pile of reasons, the most important of which for me is non-destructive editing. It has a 3 month trial I believe, and even if the trial expires it is only nag-ware, doesn't limit your ability to save or continue to use it. But if you do get it, just $60 one time charge (unless you're a professional making $20k+ from audio work I believe the limit is).

 

[CMB]

The F3 is a nice little recorder for the field. The other products out there with good quality amps and a few more features get to be a little large and cost quite a bit more. For me the size and extra weight becomes a downside since I'm usually also carrying binoculars, and a scope. I don't worry about trying to get stereo recordings.

You mentioned you have a blimp. That must be nice. I've only got a wind furry, and there are times I really wish I had a blimp.

I'm using Audacity for editing. I don't do heavy editing of field recordings. Usually trimming the beginning and end, fade in and fade out. Normalize to -3. High-pass filter no more than 250 Hz. That is the extent of how much I'll alter field recordings.

In past work projects I have used Adobe Audition extensively. For me, editing bird field recordings using Audacity has been more than sufficient. I always keep a backup of the original and only edit a copy.

 

[Gnome du Jardin]

Thank you all for your awesome comments! Quick update, I found a used Zoom h5, so I updated to it and I'm not quite satisfied. The pre-amp are definitively better, but the floor-noise is a very big issue. I will check for Reaper! Might be of some help!

 

[Borjam]

Hi Gnome,

Possibly a stupid question, but have you determined that the Zoom H4N microphone pre-amps are too noisy for your purposes?

(...)

I only reason I mention the need to determine the source of your noise issues, is that I am sure you would be dissapointed, if you purchased a new recorder, but didn't notice a substantial difference in quality.

I was going to say that. Bear in mind that not all microphones are equal. That microphone is kinda noisy. So, before buying it would be great to do a quick test to see if the result matches your expectations.

Also, you can do a relatively simple check. Prepare a XLR connector with a 100 ohm resistor across the signal pins. And record in stereo with that "dummy microphone" attached to one channel and the microphone, buried between pillows, to the other one. Of course in a silent room.

NEVER do this test with an empty microphone input instead of the XLR plus resistor. Otherwise the results will be misleading.

And for noise reduction iZotope's RX Elements can be worth having a look. Don´t expect miracles, but remember that every dB is sacred.

Buy iZotope RX 10 Elements Audio Repair | Sound Editing/Production Software

Buy RX 10 Elements. Made for content creators and home studios, iZotope RX Elements is a budget-friendly noise reduction and audio repair toolkit powered by world-class technology. Repair Assistant streamlines the same tools used by the pros to quickly correct common audio issues.

www.izotope.com

 

[Joop99]

The Tascam DR-60DMK2 seems really cool, is way cheaper than the Zoom F3 but I never see somebody using it for bird recording. Why?

Sorry for late reaction, did read it but couldn't find the topic, not even with search. The Tascam DR-60DmkII is still available. If you ask me darn cheap.
I bought this recorder for a try out in my canoe. So it had to be laid down on the back and with controls and screen on top, with this recorder you can do just that. I have now watertight connectors, busy with finding a transparent box which is waterproof. Still busy with that because sizes don't match or the box is far too big. If that's ready I can go out paddling and throw out a rod with at the end a hydrophone, see if there is sound in the lake near my house. Bought different in-line amplifiers which can connect to the connectors from mic and recorder.
An other thing why I bought this recorder is that it has the ability to work unattended. You can set when it has to start recording and when it has to stop recording. If the recording has to be in one file or in a file for each recording. With it you can set pre record too, so you don't miss a sound. This works very well, only I would like more steps for starting or stopping.
There are more or less standard opamp used, so there is noise when you turn up the record level. If the mic is noise free then you can use one of those in-line mic amplifiers sE Electronics or Triton, there are more manufacturers, but not all available in my country.

 

[S_Man]

... it has the ability to work unattended. You can set when it has to start recording and when it has to stop recording....

Sorry to hijack the discussion, but I was looking for something like that, I'm using the Zoom F3, and apparently the only way to to record a specified time period would be to control it with a computer, which defeats most advantages of a field recorder.
Now the Tascam DR-60DMK2 is already a big baby compared to the F3, and you'd need a powerbank if used for more than a few hours... but maybe you know about another device (in these prices) that could do that?

 

[Joop99]

Could do what? Your not clear in this. Make it more specific, the starting and stopping is with sound level, not in time or so. I didn't research on this because at the time I bought it I had specific my usage in the canoe in mind. Much later I found out that the feature with automatic starting and stopping is special and not found in many recorders. However there are wildlife recorders with possible this feature, but they look very different compared to the Tascam. So I can't help you, tried a search machine in your browser?

 

[jielkade]

Sorry to hijack the discussion, but I was looking for something like that, I'm using the Zoom F3, and apparently the only way to to record a specified time period would be to control it with a computer, which defeats most advantages of a field recorder.
Now the Tascam DR-60DMK2 is already a big baby compared to the F3, and you'd need a powerbank if used for more than a few hours... but maybe you know about another device (in these prices) that could do that?

Marantz PMD 661

 

[jielkade]

Marantz PMD 661

 

[Joop99]

Marantz PMD 661

No, that's not the same function if you target the automatic recording within the Tascam DR-60DmkII. I downloaded the manual from the Marantz PMD 661mkIII and all I can read is that it can do something with time. The on and off switching in the Tascam is done with record level, so not time driven.

 

[Joop99]

Now the Tascam DR-60DMK2 is already a big baby compared to the F3, and you'd need a powerbank if used for more than a few hours... but maybe you know about another device (in these prices) that could do that?

​	DR-05X​	DR-07X​	DR-40X​
Auto-level control​	Peak Reduction, Auto Level, Limiter​	Peak Reduction, Auto Level, Limiter​	Peak Reduction, Auto Level, Limiter​
Auto recording by input level​	yes​	yes​	yes​
Pre-recording buffer​	2 seconds​	2 seconds​	2 seconds​
Self-timer​	yes​	yes​	yes​
Mark function​	yes​	yes​	yes​
Dimensions (W × H × D)​	61 mm × 141 mm × 26 mm​	68 mm × 158 mm × 26 mm​	70 mm × 155 mm × 35 mm​
Weight with batteries​	165 g​	171 g​	282 g​

All Tascam, I read the manual from the DR-05X, the function is there, but not as luxurious as with the DR-60Dmk2. You can use batteries or via the USB bus an other source.

 

[S_Man]

Could do what? Your not clear in this. Make it more specific, the starting and stopping is with sound level, not in time or so....

Thanks, sadly it's not on sale anymore.

 

[S_Man]

Could do what? Your not clear in this. Make it more specific...

I was quite clear:
"...set when it has to start recording and when it has to stop recording...."
"...to record a specified time period..."

Thanks for the tip, though, apparently these Tascam are the only small field recorders that can do that.