• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

nest boxes in the winter (1 Viewer)

Hi folks,

Those nest boxes that were used this summer, do I empty them of the nest or leave it as a roosting place?

And those nest boxes that weren't used, should I give them another year in the same place or move them to somewhere else?


ta

pete
 
Hi folks,

Those nest boxes that were used this summer, do I empty them of the nest or leave it as a roosting place?

And those nest boxes that weren't used, should I give them another year in the same place or move them to somewhere else?


ta

pete
Not sure if it´s the "right" thing to do, but I always clean mine out, for fear of parasites or what-not. The nest often contains bits of goo and insects, on occasion a dead nestling down the bottom, so I´ve always reckoned it´s best to get rid of the debris. Best of Luck.
 
yes. i clean my nestbox out after somethings used it. i dont think the house sparrows or whatever would like goodness knows what left over from the nest.
 
Yes clean it out just in case of any bugs etc, but you could always put a little fresh nesting material in the bottom.

For the past 2 years we have had a Great Tit night roosting in our box.
 
Hi,

I always clean out my nest boxes. Most birds prefer building a new nest each year. I think it is part of their bonding together as a pair.

I would leave the unused nest boxes in place, unless you think they are too close to the other nest boxes.

John
 
Hi,
I always clean them out and disinfect them, then line them with some long dried pine needles and leave them up for the winter. They are used as roosting boxes sometimes. I've had a downy stay in one. He supplemented my material with wood shavings from the box.
 
on some of the boxes - if you turn them upside down so the hole is at the bottom - then they can be a good winter roost - but I think they need a perch at the top part of the box as the warmth is up there.

ps - in NA - dear mice make some nice dens out of them. I have seen this first hand. They are nice mice too
 
Last edited:
There is no need to clean most tit boxes out, it's largely a misconception. Parasites do indeed live in nests, but they very rarely cause any problem to chicks at all. Studies have shown that even heavily infested nests survive just as well as cleaner ones. And most tit nests usually decompose a surprising amount over the winter (they're usually well trampled by the chicks by fledging time). Not cleaning them wont affect their being re-used the next year, unless the bulky material for species such as starlings etc is effectively filling the box. Removing built-up material every few years, so there's room for a new nest, would be enough.

Lots of other creatures use old nests in boxes over the winter, from pupating moths and butterflies and overwintering ladybirds, wasps and bees to small mammals (mice and shrews regularly use them). Also lots of other insects - it's not all just fleas and mites. I'm of the opinion that they should be left in peace aswell. The use of cleaning chemicals is likely to have a more detrimental effect on birds than a few fleas. They've been coping with it for millions of years so any housekeeping on our part is largely for our own benefit rather than theirs.
 
There is no need to clean most tit boxes out, it's largely a misconception. Parasites do indeed live in nests, but they very rarely cause any problem to chicks at all. Studies have shown that even heavily infested nests survive just as well as cleaner ones. And most tit nests usually decompose a surprising amount over the winter (they're usually well trampled by the chicks by fledging time). Not cleaning them wont affect their being re-used the next year, unless the bulky material for species such as starlings etc is effectively filling the box. Removing built-up material every few years, so there's room for a new nest, would be enough.

It is not essential to clean a nest box out at the end of the breeding season but it is a good idea. As Poecile says, the parasite question may not be everything but there are behavioural reasons why it can be advantageous to start from fresh.

Many of our garden birds are short-lived and blue tits often only live long enough to complete one breeding cycle. This means that territories may not be held year after year by the same birds with an even chance that prospecting bird in the winter-spring period will be a first-time breeder. These birds expect to be submissive to older birds and any sign that a territory or nest site is occupied may put them off. Incidentally, this is the reason tits hammer at the floor or opening of a nest box, not to re-design the nest but to leave a sign that the box has been claimed. Residual nest materials can also give this impression to younger birds so whilst not detrimental to the nest box generally, you increase the chances of the box being occupied by removing old materials (no harm in doing a bit of cleaning at the same time). In addition, it is not unknown (apologies for the double negative) for birds to build a roost from different materials than those use in a nest intended for eggs and young although choice of materials is also a matter of choice for individual birds.

Ian
 
These birds expect to be submissive to older birds and any sign that a territory or nest site is occupied may put them off.

there is no evidence that they use nests as a cue, I'm afraid. If the territory is occupied (and blue tits are not hugely territorial in winter), then the occupants will be familiar with the new bird and vice versa from the social group. And if it's usual that each territory has new bird each spring, as you say, then obviously they will all find last year's nest from the bird which they have replaced!

Incidentally, this is the reason tits hammer at the floor or opening of a nest box, not to re-design the nest but to leave a sign that the box has been claimed.

Again, I'm not aware of any evidence for that at all! They may just be testing the strength of the substrate to make sure that a nest wouldn't drop through a cloud of loose chips and cobwebs like in rotten natural cavities. Or be trying to excavate a more tapered base, rather than big flat wooden square, so they don't have to bring in so much material to fill it.

(no harm in doing a bit of cleaning at the same time).

unless you're an overwintering butterfly, mouse or spider, that is...

In addition, it is not unknown (apologies for the double negative) for birds to build a roost from different materials than those use in a nest intended for eggs and young although choice of materials is also a matter of choice for individual birds.
Ian

Tits don't build roosts, in that they don't bring material into a cavity.

In urban and suburban areas, it may in fact be better for the birds to leave the old nest inside, so that it can act as a base for the new nest. Tits are often very short of moss to build the base in urband and suburban areas, and the nest cup can end up with the floor of the box as the base, especially as the young grow. This daramatically decreases the insulation for the chicks. So a wad of old nest can act as a useful base for the thin new nest, if the birds are struggling.
 
We're always being told about cleaning bird feeders regularly - Therefore it makes sense to me to clean out the nest box.
Mine has had Blue Tits every year for about 20 years. About every second year there are 1 or 2 dead young in the box - last year there were 3, the worst ever.

I choose a very hot day in late June or July, take the box down, empty it, scrape it, unblock the drainage hole (always blocked), sterilize it with boiling water, and allow it to dry in the hot sun.
I also take the opportunity to make running repairs, are the securing screws tight? Does the roof need replacing?
My current home made box is at least 15 years old but is on its 4th roof. Usually the box will be dry and back in position the same day.

The female of the pair seems to return to roost in the box from as early as September and will do so continuously until breeding next season. The male will start "guarding" the box from about October - by this I mean chasing off any nosy Great Tit or other Blue Tit that comes where it shouldn't.

I've never put a fresh lining in the bottom - there never seems to be a problem for them in finding moss and there is always a new deep layer with the egg cup in it the following year, but I don't think they bother until the actual nest building stage. BTW my box is made out of 3/4 inch wood, not the usual 1/2 inch, so may be a bit warmer.
 
We're always being told about cleaning bird feeders regularly - Therefore it makes sense to me to clean out the nest box.

The difference is that you may have 100 individuals coming to a feeder each day, and just 1-2 to a box. So it's a different basket of eggs really, if you'll pardon the pun. Cleaning out boxes wont really do the birds any harm, unless you get daft with the chemicals, but it's not really doing them much good either. Who cleans out wild nest holes? If you want to spend your time cleaning boxes, that's fine, but you really don't have to.

But, if you're interested in conservation, then be aware that you're wiping out a whole little ecosystem of invertebrates, most of which are not parasites.
 
But, if you're interested in conservation, then be aware that you're wiping out a whole little ecosystem of invertebrates, most of which are not parasites.

Well, by that logic, humans interested in conservation should never take a bath either, because they would "wipe out a whole little ecosystem of invertebrates, most of which are not parasites". Contrary to this logic, most humans including Poecile himself do bathe.

Similarly, most birders do think that we should provide our nesting birds with the same benefit of cleanliness, and clean out the nestboxes right after the fledge. It is simply part and parcel of the responsibilities that you take on if you put up a nest box. Here are good cleaning instructions http://www.sialis.org/clean.htm
 
RSPB advice
http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/helpingbirds/nestboxes/smallbirds/maintenance.asp

The nests of most birds harbour fleas and other parasites, which remain to infest young birds that hatch the following year. We recommend that old nests be removed in the autumn, from August onwards once the birds have stopped using the box.
Use boiling water to kill any remaining parasites, and let the box dry out thoroughly before replacing the lid. Insecticides and flea powders must not be used.
If there are unhatched eggs in the box, these may be removed legally only between August and January, and must be disposed of.
If you place a small handful of clean hay or wood shavings (not straw) in the box once it is thoroughly dry after cleaning, it may be used during the winter by small mammals to hibernate or by birds to roost.
It is quite normal for a few eggs to fail to hatch, or for some young to die. Blue and great tits lay up to 14 eggs to allow for such losses. Cold weather and food shortage may lead to nest desertion, or to only the strongest young surviving. The death of one parent or interference from animals or humans may also cause desertion.
Nestboxes in use should not be inspected. Simply watch and enjoy from a distance. If you want to see the chicks as they grow, consider installing a nestbox camera

The bit about removing addled eggs only after 31st July (UK) was news to me. I'll have to remember that for next time.
 
Well, by that logic, humans interested in conservation should never take a bath either, because they would "wipe out a whole little ecosystem of invertebrates, most of which are not parasites".

If something's living on me it is, by definition, a parasite. If something is living in my house, eg a spider, it isn't. A flea on a bird is a parasite. A spider in a nestbox isn't. See?

Contrary to this logic, most humans including Poecile himself do bathe.

and there you go with another assumption. I may well be a 'herself' ;)

And I shower anyway.

Similarly, most birders do think that we should provide our nesting birds with the same benefit of cleanliness, and clean out the nestboxes right after the fledge.

But don't you see the daftness of your own logic here? Do you apply "the same benefit of cleanliness" to the birds themselves by taking them into the bathroom with you and giving them little shampoos? No, you don't. They're birds, not little people. They don't need a housekeeper. I ask again, do you clean out natural nest cavities? If not, just how have they coped without you for a million years?
 
Poecile, your recommendation not to clean out nest boxes runs counter the recommendations of just about any bird protection organization. Just look at the post above yours about the recommendation of the RSPB in your own country, they too recommend to clean out nest boxes just like any reputable bird protection organization does.

Unsanitary nest box conditions do lead to parasites on the birds, just like unsanitary living conditions lead to parasites on humans. It is as simple as that, no need to turn and twist the logic.

I let wild dogs live as they have for millions of years, but if I adopt a dog, I take on responsibilities. Similarly, I let wild birds live as they have for millions of years, but if I provide a nest box, I take on responsibilities. Again, it is as simple as that, no need to turn and twist the logic.
 
there is no evidence that they use nests as a cue, I'm afraid. If the territory is occupied (and blue tits are not hugely territorial in winter), then the occupants will be familiar with the new bird and vice versa from the social group. And if it's usual that each territory has new bird each spring, as you say, then obviously they will all find last year's nest from the bird which they have replaced!

I cannot agree with this statement. Whilst it is normal for tits to join feeding flocks in winter, it is also normal for them to break out of winter behaviour during milder spells. It is no accident that nest boxes are checked by potential occupants for the first time in autumn and will be visited regularly through the winter. Many people have reported individual birds or pairs returning to nest boxes every night and there are reports of hammering during the first few minutes before settling for the night. As for finding old nests, it depends on the maturity of the birds and I have seen bird check but not use a nest known to have been occupied the previous year.

Again, I'm not aware of any evidence for that at all! They may just be testing the strength of the substrate to make sure that a nest wouldn't drop through a cloud of loose chips and cobwebs like in rotten natural cavities. Or be trying to excavate a more tapered base, rather than big flat wooden square, so they don't have to bring in so much material to fill it.

This does not scan and you have only made the case for the floor of the box not the entrance. There is an alternative to my original explanantion in that hammering has the same role as it has with woodpeckers, as a replacement for song. Nevertheless, this is still territorial behaviour and we should not forget that wood weathers so it is readily apparent if a mark has been freshly made.

unless you're an overwintering butterfly, mouse or spider, that is...

No argument here but what do you do about dead eggs and chicks? It is too late to make the adjustment in spring without the risk of causing the birds to abandon before nesting has really begun.

Tits don't build roosts, in that they don't bring material into a cavity.

In urban and suburban areas, it may in fact be better for the birds to leave the old nest inside, so that it can act as a base for the new nest. Tits are often very short of moss to build the base in urband and suburban areas, and the nest cup can end up with the floor of the box as the base, especially as the young grow. This daramatically decreases the insulation for the chicks. So a wad of old nest can act as a useful base for the thin new nest, if the birds are struggling.

Again, this is not completely accurate although I do not disagree with your point about the nest becoming degraded as the chicks grow. It is down to individual birds and there are records of birds building a winter roost (including blue tits) this sometimes starts as a display nest in autumn but there are records of blue tits building a winter structure. The moss point is irrelevant because individual birds use different materials even when nesting close by. This was shown to good effect on Springwatch.

Ian
 
But don't you see the daftness of your own logic here? Do you apply "the same benefit of cleanliness" to the birds themselves by taking them into the bathroom with you and giving them little shampoos? No, you don't. They're birds, not little people. They don't need a housekeeper. I ask again, do you clean out natural nest cavities? If not, just how have they coped without you for a million years?

Good point but as you tried to argue a point about providing artificial lining for an artificial nest site, is this not a counter to your own argument? Apologies for being pedantic on this because the basic question was asked about whether to clean or not to clean. Nest boxes are an artificial nest site and therefore, the responsibility for cleaning (or not) should go to the householder. Nevertheless, I agree with the RSPB and there is a system of logic to this question too. I am not going to argue with your choice not to clean out a nest box to maintain a winter home for invertebrates but given there are now insect boxes on the market, why do this with a bird nest box?

Ian
 
I cannot agree with this statement. Whilst it is normal for tits to join feeding flocks in winter, it is also normal for them to break out of winter behaviour during milder spells. It is no accident that nest boxes are checked by potential occupants for the first time in autumn and will be visited regularly through the winter. Many people have reported individual birds or pairs returning to nest boxes every night and there are reports of hammering during the first few minutes before settling for the night.

but they might just be using them as roosting sites. In built-up areas, there is frequently a deficit of cavities, so birds have little choice but to roost in nestboxes, which they then have little choice but to nest in. So, of course, you'd see them visiting throughout the winter (they have no other options!). In natural woodlands, where there is a superabundance of holes, tits usually do not roost in the future nest site until just before the breeding season. That's because they tend to choose a smaller cavity that they can warm up using less energy. A big roomy nest cavity takes a lot of heating up. Many studies of tits have shown this preference.

As for finding old nests, it depends on the maturity of the birds and I have seen bird check but not use a nest known to have been occupied the previous year.

Sorry, Ian, but that doesn't make a rule. If there is a surfeit of holes (which there is in many woodlands), then random chance would mean that they wouldn't use the same site two years in a row. But I've seen birds use the same site several years in a row, but that's not a rule of thumb either.

This does not scan

why?

and you have only made the case for the floor of the box not the entrance.

well the same logic could easily apply - they may peck the entrance to make sure it's solid enough to not be too easy for a woodpecker to break in, or that it isn't going to fall out and reveal the nest.

There is an alternative to my original explanantion in that hammering has the same role as it has with woodpeckers, as a replacement for song.

I've never heard that theory. Would that be as territorial song or sexual song? If territorial, then you'd expect 'hammer duels' between birds/pairs, as with woodpeckers. And I've never seen a report of that. If sexual, then you'd expect the male to be doing the hammering, but it's females that select breeding sites, not males. Males may 'show' females potential sites, but it's the females that choose. And in any case, tits use vocal song/calls at nests when choosing sites. This is well-recorded. So where would a mechanical 'song' fit in?

Nevertheless, this is still territorial behaviour and we should not forget that wood weathers so it is readily apparent if a mark has been freshly made.

but, if your blue tit was inspecting a hole, and saw a nest, how would it know that it was a previous nest of a blue tit, and not a great tit, coal tit, marsh tit, willow tit or crested tit? By the time they're looking into holes in the winter, all those nests will be the same kind of soggy mossy wad. How would the birds be able to tell and work out it was a rival?

No argument here but what do you do about dead eggs and chicks? It is too late to make the adjustment in spring without the risk of causing the birds to abandon before nesting has really begun. .

Well there usually virtually nothing left of dead chicks by autumn (as you'll know if you go looking for rings from dead pulli!), and eggs are usually buried right down and also decompose within about a year.

Again, this is not completely accurate although I do not disagree with your point about the nest becoming degraded as the chicks grow. It is down to individual birds and there are records of birds building a winter roost (including blue tits) this sometimes starts as a display nest in autumn but there are records of blue tits building a winter structure. .

I have seen no refs of tits building nests to roost in in winter. And it is generally assumed that anything that is built in autumn/winter is a result of hormone changes and daylength initiating spring-type behaviour. There are breeding records for many species in autumn. Perrins (British Tits 1979, p. 104/5), who is the authority on tits, it's fair to say, covers roosting behaviour, and queries why tits do not build winter roost nests, as sparrows do. So it's pretty clear that any apparent building is aberrant.

The moss point is irrelevant because individual birds use different materials even when nesting close by. This was shown to good effect on Springwatch.

Ian

I disagree strongly, that's misleading. All tits use moss as the fundamental base of the nest, if they have access to it. Where moss is scarce, they'll use grass. Individuals do vary with the lining of the cup, I agree, but only depending on what is available. If there is a dead pigeon nearby, they'll line it with feathers. If there is a dead deer, they'll line it with fur. I didn't see Springwatch, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a well-structured trial. Who's to know what was available to each bird? Who's to know if one was in a rush to build? Theer are too many variables, and you can't make a judgement based on Springwatch and what Bill Oddie says. I remember the bollox he was talking about 'bad mothers' one year, because a tit was placing a sunflower heart in the mouths of different chicks. This is perfectly normal with insect prey, as each chick then gets a bit of the juices, but when they're starving and resport to sunflower hearts it doesn't work. But they're locked-in to that behaviour so can't rationalise that. Bill should read more!
 
Warning! This thread is more than 16 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top