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New binoculars from leica (1 Viewer)

Gilmore Girl

Beth
Supporter
United States
Hey all,


If you're the person wanting me to go into great length on the how's and why's and talk about shapes of lenses or specific nanometers of light transmission you're definitely going to be disappointed in my post. But then again this is "BIRDforum" and not "Engineeringforum" right?!?... While on the stand I spent my time scanning across Lagoon 2, I appreciated the chromatic barring on the flanks and the black line separatring the red mandibles of a Water Rail tucked in dark cattails in stunning contrast, and I immensely enjoyed the juvenile Dunlin appreciating the amazing difference in bill shape/size between the UK & US birds. I watched in awe as a young Hobby jetted down from a starkly backlit sky, then raced over the dark reed bed quickly sweeping back up, stalling to eat the dragonfly it had just snatched (watching the wings tumble down reflecting light as they twirled to fall in the water)!

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for bringing the thread back down to earth :) I'm often lost on the incredible amount of dissection about transmission graphs here. But, that's ok I have learned some basic things. Still, I don't think it's a good thing to study transmission graphs until the sun goes down instead of just trying the binocular out and deciding whether you like it or not. Technical data can be helpful in Spec sheets, but it still doesn't tell me whether I will like a binocular or not.

I'm going to stick with my 7x42 UVid Plus, but I wish Leica the best with the new NVid.
 

dwever

Registered User
Supporter
Thanks Jeff. What a refreshing post to this bloated, bombastic, and occasionally pedantic thread.

I'm very encouraged by the information and impressions trickling out on social media, but as you state, looking through the Noctivids will be decisive.

Jeff, I've even communicated with one of your dealers in NY regarding an order. Can you please advise when Leica projects beginning shipments to North American dealers? Thanks again.
 

jgraider

Well-known member
Hey all,

Jeff Bouton here, the guy with the quote in question! Yes I work for Leica so understand the skepticism, BUT for those who know me they know I'm a straight shooter.

Jeff, glad to see a Leica guy here. Obviously Leica makes fantastic products, but can you please tell me why the warranty offered with these products is 2nd rate, non transferrable, and not competitive with the other alpha makers? That's the main reason I don't own any anymore. Thanks.
 

dwever

Registered User
Supporter
Jeff, glad to see a Leica guy here. Obviously Leica makes fantastic products, but can you please tell me why the warranty offered with these products is 2nd rate, non transferrable, and not competitive with the other alpha makers? That's the main reason I don't own any anymore. Thanks.

Actually, when I sold a Leica pair of UVHD+ this year I communicated with their North America customer service manager in Allendale, New Jersey, and the warranty is transferrable; what is not is Leica's very generous three year free physical damage 'Passport' policy.

See the screen shot below for Leica's Customer Care Manager's response.
 

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pimpelmees

Well-known member
Jeff, but can you please tell me why the warranty offered with these products is 2nd rate, non transferrable, and not competitive with the other alpha makers? That's the main reason I don't own any anymore. Thanks.

Yes Jeff , i want to know that to . , but i think that we are getting no answer to this question :smoke:
 

Hermann

Well-known member
Thanks Jeff. What a refreshing post to this bloated, bombastic, and occasionally pedantic thread.

Calling posts questioning claims that imply that the laws of physics don't apply to Leica binoculars "pedantic" strikes me as odd.

And that's putting it mildly.

Hermann
 

Dialyt

The Definitive Binocular
Actually, when I sold a Leica pair of UVHD+ this year I communicated with their North America customer service manager in Allendale, New Jersey, and the warranty is transferrable; what is not is Leica's very generous three year free physical damage 'Passport' policy.

See the screen shot below for Leica's Customer Care Manager's response.

I'm not sure they can demand a sales receipt. Surely the warranty card should be more than adequate?
 

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
Jeff, glad to see a Leica guy here. Obviously Leica makes fantastic products, but can you please tell me why the warranty offered with these products is 2nd rate, non transferrable, and not competitive with the other alpha makers? That's the main reason I don't own any anymore. Thanks.

Second that, — other than inadequate eye relief up to now and the WOW! prices (if one can believe what one reads.) Must admit, though, that breaking the DOF barrier would be exciting, which non-engineers obviously wouldn't realize without it being advertised along with other incomparable Leica specs.

Ed
 

jgraider

Well-known member
Actually, when I sold a Leica pair of UVHD+ this year I communicated with their North America customer service manager in Allendale, New Jersey, and the warranty is transferrable; what is not is Leica's very generous three year free physical damage 'Passport' policy.

See the screen shot below for Leica's Customer Care Manager's response.


Sorry, but you got some bad info. The warranty only covers the original owner. Doug at CamerlandNY is a Leica dealer....ask him. There are also numerous threads on various forums about their pathetic USA customer service.
 

jremmons

Wildlife Biologist
Calling posts questioning claims that imply that the laws of physics don't apply to Leica binoculars "pedantic" strikes me as odd.

And that's putting it mildly.

Hermann

Going to go ahead and agree with this post. Many optics offer prime views, but that isn't to say they aren't without fault and that the marketing nonsense shouldn't be looked at under some scrutiny - the NV is no different, here.
 

henry link

Well-known member
Calling posts questioning claims that imply that the laws of physics don't apply to Leica binoculars "pedantic" strikes me as odd.

And that's putting it mildly.

Hermann

I agree. I found Jeff Bolton's post to be curiously defensive about independent objective testing that hasn't even been done yet. Maybe they realize at Leica that some of their marketing claims aren't going to stand up to close scrutiny.

Looking through the written material I can't actually find an absolute claim for greater DOF compared to other 8x or 10x binoculars, only a vague boast of "uncompromised DOF". The idea of a design with increased DOF seems to have originated with a non-technical company spokesperson who might have simply "misspoken".

Henry
 

Gilmore Girl

Beth
Supporter
United States
Jeff is a marketing manager and writes for Leica's birding blog.
Wouldn't it take an interview with one of the actual designers of the binocular to get answers to in-depth technical questions by people
who have advanced knowledge like Henry, Ed, CJ, Holger, et al. ?

Or, maybe Jeff can take a list of questions to ask the designers to answer. Just a suggestion.
 
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NDhunter

Experienced observer
United States
Jeff:
It is good to see you on the forum, and a hearty welcome to you. I find it great to see
Leica has developed a new binocular, and from what I have read, it sounds very good.

I also have experience in sales, and we all have our jobs to help promote our products, so
bear with the questions you may get on the site. And be sure to come back with some answers to
the technical questions.

I can tell there is an enthusiasm with this new one at Leica. I like to see competition and trying
to make things better.

Now your work begins, by getting dealers to stock these, so we can have a look. Otherwise, I only
find the rangefinder models, and the new Trinovid HD. I am speaking from the only stores I have in
my area, and that is Cabelas and Scheels.

Jerry
 

dwever

Registered User
Supporter
Calling posts questioning claims that imply that the laws of physics don't apply to Leica binoculars "pedantic" strikes me as odd.

And that's putting it mildly.

Hermann

Well apparently you knew exactly who I was talking to. Look, it was said tongue-in-cheek poking at the posts full of jargon and somewhat obscure knowledge that is hardly general even among binocular enthusiasts. So "occasionally pedantic" was never questioning the laws of physics or their application to Leica binoculars. It was instead satirically merely poking fun at the seeming "occasionally pedantic" writing that put these questions forth.

Teachers aren't usually pedantic, but sticklers and show-offs are. That was the ribbing I was engaging in, but regretfully not clearly it seems.

There's nothing wrong with focusing on the details in a way that takes very specific technical information to understand it, but when one becomes highly technical in a forum where a minority of the readers will be able to follow, some good natured ribbing is fair game by suggesting you appear to be making a big display of knowing obscure highly technical facts and details in a tiresome way. That is pedantic. Even the Leica rep pointed out this is not an engineering forum but a bird forum.

Peace.
 
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elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
Well apparently you knew exactly who I was talking to. Look, it was said tongue-in-cheek poking at the posts full of jargon and somewhat obscure knowledge that is hardly general even among binocular enthusiasts. So "occasionally pedantic" was never questioning the laws of physics or their application to Leica binoculars. It was instead satirically merely poking fun at the seeming "occasionally pedantic" writing that put these questions forth.

Teachers aren't usually pedantic, but sticklers and show-offs are. That was the ribbing I was engaging in, but regretfully not clearly it seems.

There's nothing wrong with focusing on the details in a way that takes very specific technical information to understand it, but when one becomes highly technical in a forum where a minority of the readers will be able to follow, some good natured ribbing is fair game by suggesting you appear to be making a big display of knowing obscure highly technical facts and details in a tiresome way. That is pedantic. Even the Leica rep pointed out this is not an engineering forum but a bird forum.

Peace.

There is a fine line between satire and insult.
 

dwever

Registered User
Supporter
There is a fine line between satire and insult.

Did not mean to be on the side of insult, just having a little fun underlining the bloviation of the posts that inspired my thanks to Jeff for bringing this thread back to earth. Anyway, with 422 posts in this thread by the time I posted that, it's hardly a precision criticism of any specific poster. All I said was:

Thanks Jeff. What a refreshing post to this bloated, bombastic, and occasionally pedantic thread.

And from that certain people know to be offended from among 422 posts? That tells a story.
 
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Holger Merlitz

Well-known member
Hey all,

Jeff Bouton here, the guy with the quote in question! Yes I work for Leica so understand the skepticism, BUT for those who know me they know I'm a straight shooter.

I've always believed that no matter how hard we want to try and analyze numbers on paper the reality is that specs on paper or online just can't tell the story. There is no consistency in measured specs for technique for measuring and portraying things like Eye Relief or Close Focus as example so one manufacturers' measurement may well not (and often is not) repeatable when tested by another manufacturer using their testing methodology. Also, specs based solely on mathematics that consider objective lens and power like exit pupil, RBI, etc. are worthless for an end user because they assume every piece of glass has the same coatings & transmission... and we all know that doesn't work. So as it always has been, no matter how hard we may want to make sweeping judgements from home looking at printed specs, the reality is we can only make intelligent, accurate statements about the performance of a product by actually looking through it. There have been many instances where bins that looked fantastic on paper have been major disappointments in the field and vice versa.

Prior to my years with Leica, I spent 20+ years working in the field as a passionate (and starving) field research biologist & then as a professional bird guide spending the VAST majority of those years in the field staring through binoculars all day, every day. So it is from that perspective that I offer my WOW factor comment. Those who know me well, know I have been a die hard 7x42 user for the past 28 years. So it is no small matter that I say I've happily decided to set down my beloved 7x after using the new Noctivids for even the first full day. Now, however I've used these for 3 straight days staring at the birds across Lagoon 2 and in an afternoon of birding in Germany and am still convinced these are the best binocular I've ever looked through. Not looking for argument or a fight only saying do yourself a favor and look through them yourself.

If you're the person wanting me to go into great length on the how's and why's and talk about shapes of lenses or specific nanometers of light transmission you're definitely going to be disappointed in my post. But then again this is "BIRDforum" and not "Engineeringforum" right?!?... While on the stand I spent my time scanning across Lagoon 2, I appreciated the chromatic barring on the flanks and the black line separatring the red mandibles of a Water Rail tucked in dark cattails in stunning contrast, and I immensely enjoyed the juvenile Dunlin appreciating the amazing difference in bill shape/size between the UK & US birds. I watched in awe as a young Hobby jetted down from a starkly backlit sky, then raced over the dark reed bed quickly sweeping back up, stalling to eat the dragonfly it had just snatched (watching the wings tumble down reflecting light as they twirled to fall in the water)!

It took me half the first day to really realize what it was seeing and articulate it honestly, I just knew I enjoyed each time I lifted this bins to my eyes. These bins transmit as much light as any binocular in the market for starters so they are as bright as the next best out there.The close focus is real and I find that I easily focused to about half the distance of the comparable Ultravid model.
Despite the concerns of an increase of 2 ounces over the Ultravids these are perfectly balanced and most felt they were actually lighter when holding them up. I suffered no fatigue with these in a standard neck strap for 10+ hours over 3 straight days. The "WOW" factor I'd felt was due to all of these factors and one other that again I found hard to describe or articulate beyond "WOW". Now however, I think I can. In the product brochure, we mention the 3-dimensional "plasticity" of image but this alone does not begin to describe the reality of this situation. It does not begin to convey the unmatched depth of vision these bins provide. 3D barely begins to explain this amazing effect. All leading to a view that you quite frankly want more of. As I said before, don't take my word for it as I said before the ONLY way you can appreciate what these beauties will do is to see them for yourself. Next showing American Birding Expo, Columbus, OH, Sept 15-18 for the American market introduction! (just saying)



Dear Jeff,

I am firmly convinced that these binoculars are coming with improvements (like improved coatings, field flattener lens, among others) that are worth mentioning and that should be made clear in the brochures. My problem is that these brochures are additionally claiming things (like an unmatched depth of vision and 3D) that are known to be impossible. If you want to increase 3D, you will have to increase the distance between the objective lenses (i.e. use a Porro prism), and an improved dof would require a reduction in power and narrow exit pupils (your former 6x24 Leitz Amplivid had a wonderful dof). I understand that your marketing wants to convey the particular performance of (and viewing experience with) these instruments - yet, it is in danger of making a fool of itself by using technical terms that are well defined and discussed in standard textbooks. Better write about an 'unmatched vivid image' or something like that, which is understandable to the customer, which doesn't sound technical, and thus does not violate basic optical principles.

That much honesty would not only be an act of fairness toward other manufacturers. Leica, with guys like Max Berek or Oskar Barnack, has once been at the frontline of optical innovation - to do them justice, the marketing should acknowledge the optical principles these guys have once helped to unveil.

Respectfully,
Holger
 

jan van daalen

Well-known member
I agree. I found Jeff Bolton's post to be curiously defensive about independent objective testing that hasn't even been done yet. Maybe they realize at Leica that some of their marketing claims aren't going to stand up to close scrutiny.

Looking through the written material I can't actually find an absolute claim for greater DOF compared to other 8x or 10x binoculars, only a vague boast of "uncompromised DOF". The idea of a design with increased DOF seems to have originated with a non-technical company spokesperson who might have simply "misspoken".

Henry

You're hitting the nail on the right spot.
While mentioning to Leica that the Laws of fysics stands in the way of their claims, I asked what they did to performe this, so I could explain it to more educated customers on the moment they tell me that what I am saying is BS. It hits back on me. Telling customers marketing mambo jambo and get slapped on the finger by them without having a correct answer is not the position I want to find myself in.

The answer I got was: We don't. It is a secret, we don't want our competitors to know. (like they don't dismantle the NV the minute they can put their hands on it;))

Fact is, I did got the feeling it has a amazing DOF, but I must be brought into the position to be able to tell the 2.700,00 euro's donating customer to explain what he sees. It can't be rocketscience.

Maybe boxmoving Leica sellers get away with slogans like: "Technical details are not important. Enjoy the view and go birding", we sure don't.

Jan
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
There is a fine line between satire and insult.
Did not mean to be on the side of insult, just having a little fun underlining the bloviation of the posts that inspired my thanks to Jeff for bringing this thread back to earth. Anyway, with 422 posts in this thread by the time I posted that, it's hardly a precision criticism of any specific poster. All I said was:
Thanks Jeff. What a refreshing post to this bloated, bombastic, and occasionally pedantic thread.
And from that certain people know to be offended from among 422 posts? That tells a story.
DeeDubbaya, there is also a fine line between good-natured amusing exchange, and mean-spirited, invidious mocking. Ed is far too much of a distinguished true gentleman to say that at best your wayward attempts at humour, and insinuations seem uncharitable, if not downright rude, as seems to me. Why resort to low rent mocking and sarcasm as the best we can do here? does your last sentence give the game away to reveal what seems to be an inflated sense of suppositious righteousness? I'm sure that's not who you want to be. I acknowledge that many times here our communications can be misinterpreted, and offense taken where none was intended. I have never seen a genuine request for knowledge here denied by the mavens here. Sometimes when our limits of comprehension are reached here, it's best just to give a wry smile and doff your cap :-O I welcome all points of view though (even yours :t: ), as it's this fascinating diversity which weaves such a rich tapestry here.

As Holger's subsequent post shows, there are very real issues of credibility and reputation at play here for Leica, a considerably well regarded and long established stalwart of the industry. Zeiss seems to think that it was ok to start all of this incredulous marketing guff nonsense, and Leica seems to have misguidedly upped the ante right back at them. I would hate to see this as the thin end of the wedge in an industry wide deterioration, especially from the historical 'Alpha' leaders. Some of the earlier posts reporting that Leica was prepared to defend some of its more exuberant claims for the NV from legal challenge caused me to involuntarily spit my muesli out and near fall off my chair! This is fairly incredulous stuff, and along the lines of what Hermann said earlier, I find it bizarre that scrutiny of that would somehow get your goat.

I for one am thoroughly grateful that such knowledgeable, experienced, accomplished, and pleasant people are generous to give of their gifts and hard work to those on here willing to learn.

Peace. o:)

Chosun :gh:
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Dear Jeff,

I am firmly convinced that these binoculars are coming with improvements (like improved coatings, field flattener lens, among others) that are worth mentioning and that should be made clear in the brochures. My problem is that these brochures are additionally claiming things (like an unmatched depth of vision and 3D) that are known to be impossible. If you want to increase 3D, you will have to increase the distance between the objective lenses (i.e. use a Porro prism), and an improved dof would require a reduction in power and narrow exit pupils (your former 6x24 Leitz Amplivid had a wonderful dof). I understand that your marketing wants to convey the particular performance of (and viewing experience with) these instruments - yet, it is in danger of making a fool of itself by using technical terms that are well defined and discussed in standard textbooks. Better write about an 'unmatched vivid image' or something like that, which is understandable to the customer, which doesn't sound technical, and thus does not violate basic optical principles.

That much honesty would not only be an act of fairness toward other manufacturers. Leica, with guys like Max Berek or Oskar Barnack, has once been at the frontline of optical innovation - to do them justice, the marketing should acknowledge the optical principles these guys have once helped to unveil.

Respectfully,
Holger
+1 :t:

I will be very interested too see if there actually is some innovation which does increase the dof for a given magnification. :h?: :brains:

Chosun :gh:
 

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