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Message: <blockquote data-quote="lou salomon" data-source="post: 1678822" data-attributes="member: 16268">kent, jan,even in 'ponticus' (black-sea population) there is a certain percentage of adult looking breeding birds with a solid subterminal mark to p10 (i don't want to give percentages because my sample of pics maybe is not large enough, but i'd say approximately 5-10 %). we don't know how much exchange there is between western and eastern cachinnans though. it's merely a speculation that birds with extended black are from a more easterly origin. upperside black in wingtip is much more extended in caspian than on the underside and i have many pics where you can't say if it's a michahellis or a cachinnans from above - you need a look on the underside. this is such an example (but the rest of the bird is perfect for cachi) - it could be an eastern bird, pic taken in february: <a href="http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0174.jpg" target="_blank">http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0174.jpg</a><a href="http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0173.jpg" target="_blank">http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0173.jpg</a><a href="http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0175.jpg" target="_blank">http://lou.bertalan.de/birds/pic/hi/up_0175.jpg</a>see the attached bird photographed in a breeding colony in romania in spring - the amount of ventral black in wingtip is frightening.all the best,</blockquote>