New Leica September 4 2017 (1 Viewer)

[Loud Green Man]

Good luck with that, at least at Leica USA. It's Leica, not Swarovski service you're dealing with.......

In fairness to Leica I doubt even Swaro and certainly not Zeiss would get into upgrading old models however appealing it undoubtedly is (to us).

LGM

 

[Gilmore Girl]

Well, Leica did as I had predicted:



It's sad actually sad to see my prediction has come true. Leading optical company is going backwards...

"meaningful improvements":

The new 'classic' Trinovid has indeed been improved optically with modern glass and coatings. They are only using the old body and old prism design.
SP, AK prism designs are actually old designs too and brand new modern binoculars use them The only thing "retro" about this new Trinovid is the body and the Uppendahl prisms which haven't been used since the old leather clad Trinovids. We'll see soon from user reviews but I would expect the image to be noticeably improved over the decades old original.

Also, Ultravid has been updated with Schott HT glass. Whether this is a "meaningful improvement" or not is subjective and decided by each user.
I really appreciate the upgrade in my 7x42 HD+.

If they never updated the Ultravid with new glass, didn't come out with the new Trinovid HD, new 'Classic' Trinovid (upgraded with modern glass/coatings) and Noctivid then you might have a point.

 

[ceasar]

Omid,

Reference your post #260:

Commemorative binoculars are issued for any number of reasons. For instance, the old Leitz 7x35 B (It is the the old version of this new Leica 7x35 Trinovid.) also had an Anniversary Edition issued for the 1972 Olympics. Allbinos has a picture of one in their listings of the early versions of the Leitz Trinovid.

https://www.allbinos.com/1638-Leitz_Trinovid_7x35_B-binoculars_specifications.html

Nikon just came out with a 100th year Commemorative Binocular honoring their 100 years in Business. It is the old, iconic 8x30 EII Porro Prism which was introduced in 1989 I believe and still is sold in Japan but the 100 year commemorative can be purchased in the USA as long as supplies last. Only 400 were made.

http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/nikon-products/binoculars/8x30-eii-100th-anniversary.html

Nikon also has 2 brand new WX IF 7x50 and WX 10x50 binoculars designed for Astronomy. (The 10x50 would be ideal for hunting!) 100 of them have been designated as 100th Year Anniversary models and these are available until sold out.

http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/...rs/wx-10x50-if-100th-anniversary-edition.html

Bob

 

[Troubador]

To me this is like putting a new 3.0 turbo in a Carrera RS - sure performance increases but uniqueness / originality is lost. I think old classic binos should remain as is, as much of their value is their originality. All IMO of course and I can see why some want upgraded Dialyt's etc.

I agree James. Troubadoris would never consider having updated components in her 1976 Trinovid. There are several reasons why but chief among them is that it would no longer be the instrument that gave her such pleasure over the decades, it would be something else, not her old friend.

Lee

 

[Gilmore Girl]

Also, there is nothing wrong IMO with tweaking an existing proven design like adding Schott HT glass to the Ultravid. So glad this was done instead of discontinuing the model outright.
Or, tweaking the classic Trinovid as they have done in this new release.

It would've been nice to see Zeiss FL stick around (especially 7x42) and also tweaked with HT glass.

Some people recognize the benefits of Swaro SV's 'field package' upgrade noting better focus and some noting improved glare control in the 32mm. Are these meaningful improvements? That's up to users to decide for themselves.

 

[Patudo]

Thanks for your comments, James, Lee. For my part, the comments I've seen from owners of Swarovski SLC mark Is upgraded by Swarovski to Mark II standard seemed extremely positive (I'd be delighted if I sent in my Mark IIs for servicing and an option to upgrade them to Mark III was offered!), and there have been a number of comments here and elsewhere from folks who reckon that classic porros, similarly updated, would be amazing.

Incidentally, there's a company called Singer which specialises in not so much restoring as reimagining classic Porsches - and their machines are absolutely raved about by Porsche devotees. I will admit the combination of 1970s build quality and 2017 optical performance is a seductive one, to me anyway...

 

[Troubador]

Incidentally, there's a company called Singer which specialises in not so much restoring as reimagining classic Porsches - and their machines are absolutely raved about by Porsche devotees.

But not all of them, Patudo, not all of them.

Troubadoris doesn't disapprove of updating old Trinnies but she would never mess with her own.

Lee

 

[ceasar]

In fairness to Leica I doubt even Swaro and certainly not Zeiss would get into upgrading old models however appealing it undoubtedly is (to us).

LGM

Swarovski has upgraded old models of their 8x30 SLCs with modern roof prisms. See Patudo's post#266 above for more comments.

 

[jgraider]

For the record, I wasn't talking about Swaro, or anyone else just updating old binoculars. I was referring to getting older binoculars, as well as older parts, replaced as part of servicing binoculars.

 

[Omid]

Omid,

Commemorative binoculars are issued for any number of reasons. For instance, the old Leitz 7x35 B (It is the the old version of this new Leica 7x35 Trinovid.) also had an Anniversary Edition issued for the 1972 Olympics.

Bob

Yes, of course. To make my point a bit more clear: Have you seen Mercedes Benz or Porsche make a "commemorative edition" of any of their cars from 20 years ago? Do you ever expect Apple to resurrect an iphone model from 10 years ago and bring it to market as "iPhone Classic"?!! What Leica - and Nikon- are doing is what a water fountain does when it reaches its maximum height.

I gave a talk at a Safari Club dinner here in Los Angeles a few month ago and argued that sporting optics has reached its apex of progress (as measured by a human user in the field). You can see my presentation slides here:

http://omidjahromi.com/Optics/SCI_Presentation/SCI_LA_Chapter_Presentation.pdf

Regards,
-Omid

 

[james holdsworth]

But not all of them, Patudo, not all of them.

Troubadoris doesn't disapprove of updating old Trinnies but she would never mess with her own.

Lee

Agreed again. I see the Singers as a sort of non-entity - neither Porsche nor a completely new creation, more a hybrid.

 

[Gilmore Girl]

Yes, of course. To make my point a bit more clear: Have you seen Mercedes Benz or Porsche make a "commemorative edition" of any of their cars from 20 years ago? Do you ever expect Apple to resurrect an iphone model from 10 years ago and bring it to market as "iPhone Classic"?!! What Leica - and Nikon- are doing is what a water fountain does when it reaches its maximum height.

I gave a talk at a Safari Club dinner here in Los Angeles a few month ago and argued that sporting optics has reached its apex of progress (as measured by a human user in the field). You can see my presentation slides here:

http://omidjahromi.com/Optics/SCI_Presentation/SCI_LA_Chapter_Presentation.pdf

Regards,
-Omid

I see your point now that I understand you don't think roof prism binoculars of today are any better than roof prism binoculars from a few decades ago - no "meaningful improvements".

According to a wiki article the Uppendahl prism Trinovids ended in late 80's when Leica began putting SP prisms in them.
So, if you grab an old Trinovid (with the old Uppendahl prisms) from the 80's do you think the image will be comparable to this brand new edition? I suspect the new edition will show a noticeable improvement. We'll find out soon.

 

[Rathaus]

Well, Leica did as I had predicted:



It's sad actually sad to see my prediction has come true. Leading optical company is going backwards...

I read your material linked below thanks.

Why is it sad to see your prediction come true? Is it more to do with witnessing an end (a tapering off) of the heady days of optical progress?

(In your material, You suggest that binoculars are approaching their technical ceiling due to the laws of physics)

Cheers,

Rathaus

 

[NDhunter]

I see your point now that I understand you don't think roof prism binoculars of today are any better than roof prism binoculars from a few decades ago - no "meaningful improvements".

According to a wiki article the Uppendahl prism Trinovids ended in late 80's when Leica began putting SP prisms in them.
So, if you grab an old Trinovid (with the old Uppendahl prisms) from the 80's do you think the image will be comparable to this brand new edition? I suspect the new edition will show a noticeable improvement. We'll find out soon.

GG:

This is an interesting topic. I have a 10x40 Leitz Trinovid, and have been
very impressed with the small size and performance of this binocular.
This is a totally sealed binocular, and I have mentioned this above it is
very well collimated, and mine has not needed a servicing since new.
I have had a Swarovski SV, get fungus inside, and was sent for cleanup.
So it happens. :eek!:

If you do a net search, Ken Rockwell has a post about the 10x40 Leitz Trinovid.
And there are some nice points brought out there.

He mentions that Leitz went to the SP prism design as it was cheaper to manufacture.

Then Leica started with the Trinovid BA models, with SP prisms.

Jerry

 

[Gilmore Girl]

GG:

This is an interesting topic. I have a 10x40 Leitz Trinovid, and have been
very impressed with the small size and performance of this binocular.
This is a totally sealed binocular, and I have mentioned this above it is
very well collimated, and mine has not needed a servicing since new.
I have had a Swarovski SV, get fungus inside, and was sent for cleanup.
So it happens. :eek!:

If you do a net search, Ken Rockwell has a post about the 10x40 Leitz Trinovid.
And there are some nice points brought out there.

He mentions that Leitz went to the SP prism design as it was cheaper to manufacture.

Then Leica started with the Trinovid BA models, with SP prisms.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. I hope I didn't come off sounding disparaging of older binocular models (never my intention). I have a Zeiss Jenoptem 8x30 from 1986 and think the image is still good (and built well).

It would be interesting if you could get your hands on the new Trinovid 10x40 to do a comparison to see the improvements.

Improvements should be immediately noticed I would think since the new Trinovid will be phase corrected and fully multicoated with modern AR coatings...and all that jazz

 

[ceasar]

Yes, of course. To make my point a bit more clear: Have you seen Mercedes Benz or Porsche make a "commemorative edition" of any of their cars from 20 years ago? Do you ever expect Apple to resurrect an iphone model from 10 years ago and bring it to market as "iPhone Classic"?!! What Leica - and Nikon- are doing is what a water fountain does when it reaches its maximum height.

I gave a talk at a Safari Club dinner here in Los Angeles a few month ago and argued that sporting optics has reached its apex of progress (as measured by a human user in the field). You can see my presentation slides here:

http://omidjahromi.com/Optics/SCI_Presentation/SCI_LA_Chapter_Presentation.pdf

Omid,

I don't think that you can compare the improvement of Optics used in binoculars, gun sights and telescopes with the improvements to Automobiles or iPhones or computers and such over the years.

The particular Optics we are discussing have an intimate connection to the sight of the individual humans who use them. Improvements of these optics will necessarily reach their limitations as they get closer to the limitations of human sight.

The optics historically used in the 4 different types of binocular prisms (Porro, Abbe-Konig, Schmidt-Pechan and Uppendahl) over the last 100 years and more affected the designs, balance, lengths, widths and weights of the binoculars using them differently.

Back in the 1980s Leica/Leitz did not pursue the improvement of the coatings on their old model Trinovids which used Uppendahl prisms. They simply stopped using Uppendahl prisms and switched to binoculars which used Schmidt/Pechan prisms and this changed their binoculars entire physical makeup.

Leica has now given those old Uppendahl Prisms phase coatings and brought their old Leitz Trinovids back with new up to date coatings on their lenses. This gives binocular shoppers more styles of binoculars to choose from which are lighter in weight, slimmer and easier to carry around.

It is a marketing strategy by Leica and an improvement of the old Leitz Trinovids but it was never meant to be a new revolutionary improvement of binoculars.

Bob

 

[Loud Green Man]

Swarovski has upgraded old models of their 8x30 SLCs with modern roof prisms. See Patudo's post#266 above for more comments.

I stand corrected.

LGM

 

[Patudo]

Agreed again. I see the Singers as a sort of non-entity - neither Porsche nor a completely new creation, more a hybrid.

Acknowledged sir, and I should have noted that they do have their detractors. It does seem, though, that there's plenty of demand for Singer and other noted Porsche tuners, and I do wonder (and wonder it will have to be, lacking as I do the entrepreneurship and connections needed to take such a proposition to market) whether a run of lenses/prism assemblies for the classic roof binoculars produced in the largest numbers - in order to achieve economies of scale - would be viable. Granted, the demographic owning classic Porsches is no doubt different to those owning classic Dialyts. But for every Troubadoris - who does of course have access to more modern glass, which makes it easier to indulge in nostalgia (I mean no offence - I own and regularly use an Oberkochen) I'd wager there's likely to be a chap like Hermann who has a much loved Dialyt 10x40B in his cabinet that he'd love to use but has reluctantly put aside because its optical performance just doesn't match up to today's Terra, let alone Conquest. Leica's latest release is basically a factory version of what we've been discussing and I for one will be interested in seeing how well it does on the market. If the lenses/prisms are indeed compatible with the Leitz models I wonder if there might be any interest in retrofitting them into Leitz Trinovids - service only available from Leica and at Leica prices of course!

Best regards
patudo

 

[Patudo]

I gave a talk at a Safari Club dinner here in Los Angeles a few month ago and argued that sporting optics has reached its apex of progress (as measured by a human user in the field). You can see my presentation slides here:

http://omidjahromi.com/Optics/SCI_Presentation/SCI_LA_Chapter_Presentation.pdf

Regards,
-Omid

Read your pdf with interest Omid. I would guess (not having looked through your previous posts) your background is as a hunter? I agree that binocular development is probably now led by/directed towards the birding rather than the hunting community, and that the pace of improvement has tapered off and that future improvements in pure optical quality (transmission, resolution etc) are likely to be incremental (unless major disruptive technology intervenes, of course). However, there would still seem to be room for improvement in areas such as field of view (maybe, as Holger Merlitz has suggested, the next thing for alpha manufacturers to compete over now that image quality is so good?), and for the image quality offered at "alpha" level to trickle down into the mid-tier. We're seeing this happen to some extent with products such as Maven B1 and GPO. I wonder if some day someone will order a binocular from Kamakura with all the best features of their current crop rolled into one - a Maven "A" as it were.

 

[Omid]

I see your point now that I understand you don't think roof prism binoculars of today are any better than roof prism binoculars from a few decades ago - no "meaningful improvements".

I agree that the roof prisms of today might be slightly better in terms of contrast, brightness etc. and slightly lighter with possibly slightly better focusing wheel. But these minor improvements are not significant enough to justify introducing multiple generations of products (e.g. Leica Trinovid BA, then BN then Ultravid, then Ultarvid HD then Ultravid HD+ then Nuctivid.). Hunters and sportsmen have recognized these and they are not buying the new stuff.. (Zeiss 8X56 Classic is the favorite of the German hunters, not the new SF of HT models)

Another very important factor is this: An improvement that will be lost if a drop of rain falls on the objective lens or if your hand shakes a little bit is not worth it. Such "improvements" are only useful as discussion subjects here on Birdforum.