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New Zeiss Victory SF !!!!!! (1 Viewer)

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Sigh. Once again gentlemen the Swaro patent was for two bridges and the lack of a spindle or axle forming part of the hinge arrangement and spanning the gap between the bridges. Look up some pics of old bins and you will find, as Gijs has pointed out, plenty of bins with an 'extra' bridge down by the objectives, but they always had the spindle extending from the top bridge down to the bottom bridge ie exactly where your fingers would like to go. Swaro EL doesn't have such a spindle to form part of the hinge arrangement and this was a stated feature of the patent.

SF does have a spindle as part of the hinge but this only extends between the top two bridges, leaving the space between the tubes free for fingers, and SF has three bridges not two as stated in the patent.

I am no lawyer but these seem like fundamental differences between SF and the patent to me.

Lee
 

dalat

...
I don't really want to start this discussion again, but I don't think you're correct here, Lee. The Swaro patent (at least according to the text that was linked in the various htreads discussing it) talked about something in the focus mechanism, and that this focus design is useful for open bridge designs, but may also be used in single bridge design. It is not about the open bridge as such.

And, there are plenty of examples of historic open bridge designs without the spindle you refer to. E.g. this 100 year old Zeiss bin I linked in this thread, 900 posts ago: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=500105&d=1401956269
 

Holger Merlitz

Well-known member
Holger,

Ed's comment earlier about someone questioning the correlation of bench tests to field observations, that would be me, about a hundred times on these forums. No disrespect meant to Henry, and I have always said that bench tests have an important role to play, but also that they don't always match my field experience or tell me all that I need to know in making a purchase decision unless there is something glaringly wrong with the binoculars, and then it might be due to sample variation.

Testing one sample is hard to make generalizations about all samples. Henry knows this and has, for example, pointed out the differences in resolution between the two sides of his 8x56 FL, and also that some imperfections seen "under the microscope" don't affect performance in the field. But exactly where to draw the line between bench testing and field testing, and how much overlaps and how much doesn't, is something I've often wondered about. Your model that attempts to bridge that gap by including the user in the equation sounds promising and could finally settle the debate. Or at least shed some light on it.

There is one more variable that needs to be factored in, and that might require yet another expert, a neuroscientist, because that factor is the brain. When one adjusts to various distortions, for example, such as "rolling ball" caused by AMD, it's not just the eyes' distortion level that's involved, but that matters as you've pointed out in your reports, but also the user's brain. Something happens in people's brains that allows them to make adjustments to accommodate out of the ordinary experiences.

I always mention the old chicken experiment where chickens were fitted with prisms whereby they saw the world upside down and eventually they adjusted to an upside down world. We are like those chickens when we are able to accommodate AMD, excessive pincushion, CA, etc. in binoculars and use them as if they were "picture perfect." Of course, not everybody can accommodate to those distortions/aberrations, for those people, the world still looks "upside down" through the binoculars.

The question is how do you incorporate a user's ability or lack of ability to accommodate these various optical distortions and aberrations into your model?

Some of this falls under the purview of the visual scientist, and I would suggest Ed as a peer reviewer. He modestly downplays his knowledge of binoculars, but he's well versed in optics and he's a visual expert. Sounds like he might be the right person for the job of reviewer.

Brock



Hi Brock,

My model (and here I am talking about the distortion/globe effect model) is not that sophisticated: It is using the data taken from measurements on static targets, in this case distorted Helmholtz-checkerboards, to estimate the individual 'curvature' of the visual space and to infer its impact on the perception of the panning image. I also used computer animations to visualize these effects. Whether or not they feel disturbing to an observer, the model cannot tell, neither, whether the observer might eventually get used to these phenomena. It would require long term statistical studies, including a large number of volunteers, to answer these questions. My model just tries to answer a single fact: Does a particular observer have a barrel distortion of sufficient magnitude so that he/she could potentially perceive a globe effect.

Mark Wagner, in his book 'The geometries of visual space', noted: In fact, the geometry that best describes visual space changes as a function of experimental conditions, stimulus layout, observer attitude, and the passage of time.

I guess the same holds in the context of evaluations of other aberrations, too. Whenever individuals are involved, the conclusions drawn by these observers will differ, not only among individuals, but also by one and the same observer at different times. This fact doesn't make all attempts to evaluate optical performance a fruitless task. A careful comparison of different opinions on different models still allows us to find a kind of common ground, onto which evaluations can be based, even though this will never be a trivial and straight forward process. We need to combine whatever data we can get and see what we can make of them.

Cheers,
Holger
 

Gijs van Ginkel

Well-known member
Lee and Florian,
I do not know the exact date of the SV patent, but it may be possible that it is expired by now. One sees also in the cheaper price range many open bridge binoculars, that could be an indication. In 1984 Zeiss also had a patent on the classic porro design and around 1908-1910 that patent obviously had expired, since at that time many similar porro binoculars came on the market. I guess that the SV patent was from 1998 or 1999, so 15 years later...Who is patent expert here?
Gijs
 

dalat

...
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Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
I don't really want to start this discussion again, but I don't think you're correct here, Lee. The Swaro patent (at least according to the text that was linked in the various htreads discussing it) talked about something in the focus mechanism, and that this focus design is useful for open bridge designs, but may also be used in single bridge design. It is not about the open bridge as such.

And, there are plenty of examples of historic open bridge designs without the spindle you refer to. E.g. this 100 year old Zeiss bin I linked in this thread, 900 posts ago: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=500105&d=1401956269

Florian you absolutely correct that the patent covered the focus mechanism and this was vital in making the whole design work. I was focusing (!) on the visible aspects of the two designs.

The patent also mentioned the absence of the spindle creating space for the fingers.

But you are right, we are not patent lawyers.

Lee

Lee
 

tynedale

Member
[For people who just consider a binocular a tool to get an ID, then they may not get value out of spending the extra money. However if you can see the differences, appreciate the differences, enjoy optics, get good utilization, and can afford the extra expenditure, then the value may be there for you.]

Bruce

Thanks for your courteous and informative reply - and consistency as regards Lee's field tested experience. You are right as regards returning to my trusted Swift - still the familiar handing but now way off pace. Overall I think I am moving on to two things - more than just bird id (and the tendency to study individual birds) but more towards the more expansive view and the aesthetic pleasure of using a top flight product. For the record I am also an amateur photographer but use a large frame Deardorff (USA) wooden camera with a zeiss lens, there is an indefinable sensory feedback from such instruments that I am sure adds to the end result. You will probably note I am beginning to rationalise towards the likelihood of acquiring an SF (subject to 'the view') however the DBA has turned out so well that this will stay - as has the Swift which I still take down to the coast for old times sake and where very occasionally its extra pull outweighs other considerations.

Barrie
 

Chickadee Whisperer

Active member
Another Welcome to the Forum.

Another age related issue is pupils do not dilate as much as one gets older. If you where considering an expensive 7X50 for better light gathering, then that would probably not be of much benefit. However that is not what you are planning and so an 8X42 should be a good choice with easy eye placement.

I have a question about this. I have 62-year-old eyes and congenital cataracts. I've always read that light gathering grows less important when our pupils stop adapting readily, but I can still EASILY notice better light gathering in binoculars with larger exit pupils.

It seems to me that the issue is akin to being a room with a larger window or a smaller one. The room with the larger window is brighter for everyone in the room, unless your head is sticking out the window, in which case both views are equally bright. It seems like unless our eyeballs are actually inside the optical lens, the image from a larger exit pupil will be brighter even for older eyes.

I may be completely misunderstanding the physics of this, but if so, why IS the image still brighter for my aging eyes when I'm using binoculars with better light gathering?
 

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
I have a question about this. I have 62-year-old eyes and congenital cataracts. I've always read that light gathering grows less important when our pupils stop adapting readily, but I can still EASILY notice better light gathering in binoculars with larger exit pupils.

It seems to me that the issue is akin to being a room with a larger window or a smaller one. The room with the larger window is brighter for everyone in the room, unless your head is sticking out the window, in which case both views are equally bright. It seems like unless our eyeballs are actually inside the optical lens, the image from a larger exit pupil will be brighter even for older eyes.

I may be completely misunderstanding the physics of this, but if so, why IS the image still brighter for my aging eyes when I'm using binoculars with better light gathering?

Hi Laura

As long as your pupils are opening up somewhat in dimmer light then you will be able to make some use of larger exit pupils. And as far as I understand it, if the bins transmit more light by having clever glass and/or coatings, the exiting 'beam' of light that your pupils will allow to pass, will contain more photons per unit of area. There is some discussion about the minimum extra percentage of light that the human eye can register, usually stated as 2 or 3 %, but that would still give you a fighting chance of noticing the difference between say bins passing 88% and bins passing 93%.

Lee
 

dalat

...
I may be completely misunderstanding the physics of this, but if so, why IS the image still brighter for my aging eyes when I'm using binoculars with better light gathering?

The phyiscs are pretty simple: If your eye pupil is equal or larger than the exit pupil of the binocular, you'll be able to benefit from the full light the bin can deliver. If your eye pupil is smaller than the exit pupil of the bin, than your eye pupil becomes the limiting factor, because only a part of the light beam provided enters your eye.

Now if you see a difference or not, all depends on how large your pupils really dilate in low light and what bin you're using.

Generally only young people's eye pupils dilate up to 7 mm or more, only those can make full use of the 7 mm exit pupil of a 8x56 mm.

But if your eye pupils still dilate to 5 mm, then you're still be able to almost fully use the light provided by a 8x42, and you certainly will be able to see the difference in brightness in low light to a 8x32 or 8x20.

The difference in tranmission mentionned by Lee comes into play when comparing bins that have the same exit pupil size, or when different bins are used and for both your eye pupil is smaller than the exit pupils.
 
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ceasar

Well-known member
It's patently obvious what's going on here...


I asked my brother who is a Lawyer in the Washington DC area if he ever got involved in patent law cases. He said he didn't because, like tax law, it was "too damn boring."

This particular issue of Swarovski's patenting "2 bit" (I use that term in its pejorative sense) dual hinges on binoculars was once a curiosity. By now it has become a bore!

Bob
 

BruceH

Avatar: Harris Hawk
............

I may be completely misunderstanding the physics of this, but if so, why IS the image still brighter for my aging eyes when I'm using binoculars with better light gathering?

I go along with what Lee and Forian already posted, but I would like to add a little to it.

Speaking in general terms, the size that the pupil will dilate becomes less as people age. However there is much variation between individuals in an age group. There was a posting sometime ago of a study showing the max pupil sizes of the subjects in the study. When just looking at individuals rather than the group as a whole, some of the people in the older groups had larger max pupil sizes than individuals in the younger groups.

You may be one of those individuals where your max dilation is larger than average for your age group. Going back to what Florian posted, lets say your max dilation is 6mm. The exit pupil of a 10X40 is 4mm and an 8X40 is 5mm. So, the 8X should look brighter to you in poor light compared to the 10X since a pupil size of 6mm can make use of all the additional light from the 8X.
 

BruceH

Avatar: Harris Hawk
Bruce

Thanks for your courteous and informative reply - and consistency as regards Lee's field tested experience. You are right as regards returning to my trusted Swift - still the familiar handing but now way off pace. Overall I think I am moving on to two things - more than just bird id (and the tendency to study individual birds) but more towards the more expansive view and the aesthetic pleasure of using a top flight product. For the record I am also an amateur photographer but use a large frame Deardorff (USA) wooden camera with a zeiss lens, there is an indefinable sensory feedback from such instruments that I am sure adds to the end result. You will probably note I am beginning to rationalise towards the likelihood of acquiring an SF (subject to 'the view') however the DBA has turned out so well that this will stay - as has the Swift which I still take down to the coast for old times sake and where very occasionally its extra pull outweighs other considerations.

Barrie

Lee posted his comments while I was still writing mine so I am glad to find that we were on the same track.

Now knowing you are an amateur photographer, I completely understand your appreciation for the aesthetics of the view. The SF may be the ticket with a wide FOV and flat field for those moments when the location and lighting all come together for a spectacular view.

Please continue to post as you sort through all of this.
 
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As far as I heard by reliable sources the new SF will not be available before the middle of November. There were some minor technical problems which will be solved before appearing on the market.
 

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