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New Zeiss Victory SF !!!!!! (1 Viewer)

brocknroller

A professed porromaniac
United States
If Swarovski has a valid patent they can agree to any licensing arrangement they wish with Zeiss, and visa-versa.

Ed

If that's how it works, then why couldn't this have happened with Nikon and Swaro with the EDG? Why litigate when you can negotiate?

I think Sag's answer makes sense. Zeiss has Swaro over a barrel since they own Schott.

<B>
 

tynedale

Member
Lee posted his comments while I was still writing mine so I am glad to find that we were on the same track.

Now knowing you are an amateur photographer, I completely understand your appreciation for the aesthetics of the view. The SF may be the ticket with a wide FOV and flat field for those moments when the location and lighting all come together for a spectacular view.

Please continue to post as you sort through all of this.

Bruce

Your observations about the ‘view’ identified what now seems a paradox that I have lived with for quite a while but had not recognised. What you describe is what I get almost every time I disappear under my dark cloth to create a picture on my large format camera. Even after 20 years I never cease to be amazed at the magical image that appears on the 5x4 inch Fresnel screen (the size of the negative). I get extreme “immersive” clarity with edge to edge sharpness, a combination of my Zeiss lens (hence my affinity with the company) and the adjustments available on my camera frame even if it is upside down, but like the chickens featured elsewhere I no longer notice this. It is strongly resonant of the initial observations of Lee on first acquaintance with the SF.

On the other hand it did not occur to me to look for this in my binoculars. I was satisfied with using them as an aid to bird ID and then focusing mainly on the bird, centering it by moving my binoculars and head position, no matter whether it was reasonably static or on passage during a sea watch. Therefore edge sharpness was not really an issue nor was a marginal percentage difference in the sweet spot.

Clearly when I tested my DBA against the HT although I looked out across countryside I simply focused on static targets, a fencepost, tree or telegraph pole, hence no significant difference. What I really needed was a flight of golden plover to hurtle across the view such as I am experiencing daily over my garden right now. This is why the observations of experienced ‘whole view’ users on the forum is so valuable. Of course I now have the perfect benchmark for testing the SF when available – my large format camera image. Not for nothing are they commonly described as view cameras – a viewpoint you also rightly promote and a reminder of which served to create a Eureka moment for me. I will keep you posted with a first test reaction in due course.
 

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Bruce

Your observations about the ‘view’ identified what now seems a paradox that I have lived with for quite a while but had not recognised. What you describe is what I get almost every time I disappear under my dark cloth to create a picture on my large format camera. Even after 20 years I never cease to be amazed at the magical image that appears on the 5x4 inch Fresnel screen (the size of the negative). I get extreme “immersive” clarity with edge to edge sharpness, a combination of my Zeiss lens (hence my affinity with the company) and the adjustments available on my camera frame even if it is upside down, but like the chickens featured elsewhere I no longer notice this. It is strongly resonant of the initial observations of Lee on first acquaintance with the SF.

On the other hand it did not occur to me to look for this in my binoculars. I was satisfied with using them as an aid to bird ID and then focusing mainly on the bird, centering it by moving my binoculars and head position, no matter whether it was reasonably static or on passage during a sea watch. Therefore edge sharpness was not really an issue nor was a marginal percentage difference in the sweet spot.

Clearly when I tested my DBA against the HT although I looked out across countryside I simply focused on static targets, a fencepost, tree or telegraph pole, hence no significant difference. What I really needed was a flight of golden plover to hurtle across the view such as I am experiencing daily over my garden right now. This is why the observations of experienced ‘whole view’ users on the forum is so valuable. Of course I now have the perfect benchmark for testing the SF when available – my large format camera image. Not for nothing are they commonly described as view cameras – a viewpoint you also rightly promote and a reminder of which served to create a Eureka moment for me. I will keep you posted with a first test reaction in due course.

Eyup Tynelad

For some time I have discounted field flatteners in bins because I always centre the subject so I couldn't see the point of them. However, to the great amusement of sparring partners like Kammerdiner, I had to swallow my own words following an encounter with perhaps 50 cetaceans off Skye this summer. The Minke Whales and Harbour Porpoises (there were Dolphins too) were surfacing for maybe 3-4 seconds so I needed to be very quick deciding whether the shadow at the edge of the field of view was the beginning of a whale coming up or just a wave. A flat field with sharpness extending to near the edge would have been an enormous help and the SF comes with a field flattener that works well.

With the flattener and such a wider field of view I would have been far better equipped for this incident and although I would be as daft as a brush to buy a pair of bins for just a single type of viewing, this capability is transferable to loads of circumstances, some of which I mentioned in my previous post.

I have never used a view camera but in a very small way I can understand your love of the entire process of arriving at the moment of exposure. For this very reason, back in the day, my auto exposure SLRs were accompanied by first a Canon AT-1 and later a Canon F1n with match-needle exposure setting (for static subjects like flowers etc), just so I could enjoy the more contemplative pace of approaching the moment of exposure.

Lee
 

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
If that's how it works, then why couldn't this have happened with Nikon and Swaro with the EDG? Why litigate when you can negotiate?

I think Sag's answer makes sense. Zeiss has Swaro over a barrel since they own Schott.

<B>

It's all a matter of the circumstances, Brock. I (and probably you) don't know what kind of infringements were involved, if any. Also, I doubt that Schott could really be used to infringe another big company's patents, since blackmail usually breaks "fair practice" laws, and can be prosecuted. Small companies, — now that's another matter. They get screwed all the time in the U.S., and I assume in Europe too.

All I can say is that Zeiss is looking more and more like Swaros, --- and I don't care! I'm more than happy if two or three companies proffer great products for me to choose between.

I'm just annoyed that Swaro cheapened up their SLC-HD models, 'caus I like 'em best of all.

Ed
 
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jan van daalen

Well-known member
If that's how it works, then why couldn't this have happened with Nikon and Swaro with the EDG? Why litigate when you can negotiate?

I think Sag's answer makes sense. Zeiss has Swaro over a barrel since they own Schott.

<B>

Schott, O'Hara, Hoya are like Shell, Esso, BP.
Your car drives on that fuel, same like the glass from those companies. Your bin won't really matter. When I was at Swaro, Zeiss and Leica, there were boxes with glass from all three companies. They just buy from the firm who has just that type of glass available for the right price.

Jan
 

james holdsworth

Consulting Biologist
Schott, O'Hara, Hoya are like Shell, Esso, BP.
Your car drives on that fuel, same like the glass from those companies. Your bin won't really matter. When I was at Swaro, Zeiss and Leica, there were boxes with glass from all three companies. They just buy from the firm who has just that type of glass available for the right price.

Jan


Are you saying Zeiss uses glass other than Schott? Even though they own Schott?

Any idea what models used non-Schott glass?
 

brocknroller

A professed porromaniac
United States
It's all a matter of the circumstances, Brock. I (and probably you) don't know what kind of infringements were involved, if any. Also, I doubt that Schott could really be used to infringe another big company's patents, since blackmail usually breaks "fair practice" laws, and can be prosecuted. Small companies, — now that's another matter. They get screwed all the time in the U.S., and I assume in Europe too.

All I can say is that Zeiss is looking more and more like Swaros, --- and I don't care! I'm more than happy if two or three companies proffer great products for me to choose between.

I'm just annoyed that Swaro cheapened up their SLC-HD models, 'caus I like 'em best of all.

Ed

Well, Ed. Here's the thing, the EDG was out before the SV EL. The Brit who did the 10x42 SV EL review got it wrong, saying the the SV EL was the first premium open bridge roof to use field flattener. No so, Nikon had the EDG 1, though it was short-lived. So how can you sue over something you haven't even designed yet? Again it goes back not to the focuser, which isn't similar to the EL, but the open bridge design, which many sports optics companies use and now even Zeiss uses (but with impunity).

Even if Swaro hadn't threatened litigation, the EDG focuser needed to be redesigned since they made so many that were defective. What's unfathomable was that reviewers of the EDG prototypes pointed this out to Nikon and yet they went ahead with production anyway. Why rush to market? Did they know that Swaro had the SV EL in the works? Yes, all rhetorical questions, you would say, but to switch gears and reply to an earlier comment of yours about ER, I don't think that asking why ER doesn't have an ISO standard is "rhetorical." It's a valid question.

From what I've read from the experts AFOV is "plastic" and depends not solely on a simple magnification x FOV formula, but also related to the bin's distortion level, yet they developed a standard.

If there could be agreement on the range of useable ER, and I think there is a consensus among users (15 or 16mm on the short side and 17-19mm on the long side), and since you can precisely measure the height of the eyecups above the EP housing, and you can precisely measure the recess of the EP top lens below the EP housing, useable ER can become a standard so that for once eyeglass wearers will know which bins work for them and which bins won't (provided they know how much they need since that will vary within the range depending on their facial features and glass thickness). A more experienced four-eyed user would know.

The way ER is measured now is, as the 10x42 SV EL stated, "a bit disingenuous." With so many people wearing eyeglasses still -- according to the Vision Council of America, approximately 75% of adults use some sort of vision correction. About 64% of them wear eyeglasses, and about 11% wear contact lenses, either exclusively, or with glasses -- that you'd think this would be an important spec to be accurate about, but as we know, ER specs are about as reliable as weather reports in central Pa.

Brock
 
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jan van daalen

Well-known member
Are you saying Zeiss uses glass other than Schott? Even though they own Schott?

Any idea what models used non-Schott glass?

James,

AFAIK no brand uses exclusively Schott glass in a model.

You can't say that Zeiss owns Schott.

You should consider (like Ernst Abbe did) Schott a co-founder of the Carl Zeiss Foundation.
In 2008 Schott their generated global sales was 2.23 billion euro's of which 73% came from outside Germany.
They developed in 130 years from a glass laboratory to a technology group with up and about 18,000 employees of which 8,000 work in Germany.

How much people work at Zeiss?

Jan
 

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
...

From what I've read from the experts AFOV is "plastic" and depends not solely on a simple magnification x FOV formula, but also related to the bin's distortion level, yet they developed a standard.

If there could be agreement on the range of useable ER, and I think there is a consensus among users (15 or 16mm on the short side and 17-19mm on the long side), and since you can precisely measure the height of the eyecups above the EP housing, and you can precisely measure the recess of the EP top lens below the EP housing, useable ER can become a standard so that for once eyeglass wearers will know which bins work for them and which bins won't (provided they know how much they need since that will vary within the range depending on their facial features and glass thickness). A more experienced four-eyed user would know.

The way ER is measured now is, as the 10x42 SV EL stated, "a bit disingenuous." With so many people wearing eyeglasses still -- according to the Vision Council of America, approximately 75% of adults use some sort of vision correction. About 64% of them wear eyeglasses, and about 11% wear contact lenses, either exclusively, or with glasses -- that you'd think this would be an important spec to be accurate about, but as we know, ER specs are about as reliable as weather reports in central Pa.

Brock

Hmmm. I was the one who originally posted a link for our national Vision Council stats. Glad it had some impact on someone.

The definition of exit pupil distance (XPD) or eye-relief (ER) is optically well defined, but whether it can be reported accurately is another matter. I can see that there might be some measurement problems if the eye-lens isn't flat, and particularly if spherical aberration makes the exit pupil three dimensional, as portrayed in the diagram below. Reporting "usable" eye relief is further complicated because a curved eyeglass lens mates differently with eyepieces having different diameters. There's lots of room for "honest" and "dishonest" errors.

Life is frustrating! :smoke:

Ed
 

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dalat

...
You're both right of course. There are two companies, Schott AG and Carl Zeiss AG, the one that makes the binoculars. Zeiss AG does not own Schott AG, but both are fully owned by the Carl Zeiss Foundation (since 125 years).
 

jan van daalen

Well-known member
Schott AG is fully owned by the Carl Zeiss Foundation.


Gary.

Gary,

That's right, but only stating that (like James did) does not do right to the role Schott played to the Zeiss development.
Stating that Zeiss owns Schott and therefor only uses Schott glass and/or other brands can not use Schott glass because Zeiss won't accept that (Brock's statement) is completely out of any reality.

For me, Zeiss and Schott are equal but your statement above is correct.

Jan
 

dalat

...
Stating that (...) other brands can not use Schott glass because Zeiss won't accept that is completely out of any reality.

This here give a bit of an idea of the business going on between Schott and Swarovski: http://www.us.schott.com/magazine/english/sol108/sol108_07_light.html

Swarovski and SCHOTT have been in close contact with each other already for generations. Today, for example, the glass experts from Mainz are the largest supplier of optical subassemblies for Swarovski Optik: ”SCHOTT provides the preforms for the vast majority of prisms and lenses that are built into higher quality devices – tendency rising,” explains Patrick Holota from SCHOTT Austria. The technology group cooperates closely with its partners in Austria. To achieve the best possible imaging results, the engineers from SCHOTT select the perfect glass type for the respective application from a broad range of around 110 different optical glasses. Subassemblies in all geometrical shapes with a rough, matt surface are then delivered to Swarovski for processing. Honing, polishing, coating and application of an anti-reflective coating are the key to enabling a highly transparent view through premium quality binoculars. However, reliability of delivery is also a crucial element of the business relationship
 

jan van daalen

Well-known member
Similar amazement at Zeiss' use of non-Schott glass came up in this thread a few years back, regarding a video at the Wetzlar factory showing stacks of Ohara boxes.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=239330

Really, all this essentialism about materials and place of origin is pretty silly--it just makes us tools of marketing.

Nice video.
Amazing also to see how some people get older in two years;)
 

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