Night vision equipment for mortals (3 Viewers)

[nmerc_photos]

As it stands now, as I keep reading / researching, I like the XL50 for being a Pulsar and for the better sensor but the FOV is still a disappointment. Additionally, the delay of 3 seconds to enter standby and 6 seconds to turn a unit off, and the lack of a tilt based or timer based auto-off function, are conspicuously missing bits of trivial to implement functionality on the Pulsars. Particularly for a doofus like me who has managed to run down their thermal numerous times either through my own stupidity or from the on button getting smashed into something in my pocket or backpack.

The Zeiss DTI 6/20 has a sensible sleep and auto-off functionality, and the price is down at a hair over 2000€ which is still steep compared to off brand offerings but is not completely disagreeable. What is frustrating is that it is the size and weight of the higher resolution and better in every way other than FOV Pulsar. The Pixfra which is the same sensor generation (640p) weighs less than half what the Zeiss does.

I'm almost tempted to just take a flyer on the Pixfra and if it disappoints then decide between the Zeiss and Pulsar, or wait for yet another generation of products to come to market.

Agree on the cons of the Pulsar unit, though those aren't problems I've had before. I'm still thinking I might pick up a Pulsar XP50 (again) just because when I last purchased one I paid $4K, and now they're available for $2K or less (used). The XP50 line with lower NETD performs better in high humidity. I don't think the slightly better FOV of the XL50 is worth double the price. The reduced FOV of the Telos XP50 is annoying over the Helion XP28, but the convenience of USB-C is more important for me I think.

I may just bite the bullet and go for an XP35 or XT50 bino pair. Buy once and hopefully cry once. appears to be the best of both worlds for FOV/resolution/new tech.

I did a lot of research on the Zeiss DTI 6/20 which looks good on paper, but I didn't find any reviews that were positive. Most claim the Zeiss thermals are just Chinese made stuff with a Zeiss label and high price slapped on. Many people buying Zeiss, trying it, and then swapping to Pulsar.

"None of the Zeiss thermals are worth the money - you are paying for the name and not much else
The Telos XP50 is a much better product in every respect, but don't dismiss other excellent products that are just as good as the Telos and cost significantly less"

"There's absolutely nothing wrong with Zeiss scopes and binos - they are excellent products and Zeiss has a well deserved reputation for them
However, there is virtually no glass in a thermal device and Zeiss don't actually make any of the important bits - they buy those bits (sensor, germanium lens, electronics and display) almost exclusively from China and simply assemble them"

I was also turned off by the large size/weight of the Zeiss. At that point I may as well just get some Pulsar binos.

Selfishly, I want you to take a flyer on the Pixfra just so we can get some feedback. I can't really find anything about them at all.

 

[Vollmeise]

I added 5 of the Pulsar Binos to the chart:

View attachment 1625334

the only ones that look interesting are perhaps the XP35 / XT50 but those price tags are something...

View attachment 1625335

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and the Zeiss DTI 6 20/40 models:

View attachment 1625341

the DTI 6/20 looks pretty good for price to performance on paper. need to watch some reviews and find out if there are any legitimate dealers in the US:

View attachment 1625342

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The HIKMICRO FH25 that was discussed above is a more "budget" version of the FQ35 which is already on the sheet. I would still prefer an XP28, TM10-256, TM15-384, Axion XG30 or Axion XQ30 Pro above either of the HikMicro's all for around the same budget.

Looking at the specs, the newer XG30 MSRP'ing at $2200 should be a pretty good value. If I was starting out fresh, I might aim to pick up one of those.

Thx a lot for this update. Much appreciated!

The Pulsar XT50's NETD is 40mK only, not 20mK. Maybe You can fix that?

As a suggestion: Could you place a new column like "lens interchangeable"? Could be filled with "No" or with the suitable lenses (e.g. "28/38/50 mm" for Pulsar Helion XP line or "20 / 40 mm" for Zeiss Dti 6 line) or "optical zoom", if available.

Cheers)

 

[pbjosh]

Indeed thank you @nmerc_photos for the comparison table, it's quite useful. I think another useful column might be unit weight as there are huge differences, these units range from under 300g to well over 700g.

Also, I am also a bit put off by the mixed Zeiss reviews. Some reviews I saw suggested the DTI 6 is at least assembled in house. I guess that almost no one is making all parts of a product like this themselves. Leica thermals are reputed to be made by InfiRay and badged as Leicas. I've not heard anything bad about them quality wise, and I have no qualms with Zeiss using OEMs to provide units or parts. What really matters is quality, price, and warranty. For now the Zeiss DTI 6 seem to have some features that others lack, they have a wide FOV that you're not going to get except in the Pixfra A613 or the InfiRay ZH38, and I would have warranty service available in the country I live in which is of value...

 

[Vollmeise]

I added 5 of the Pulsar Binos to the chart:

View attachment 1625334

the only ones that look interesting are perhaps the XP35 / XT50 but those price tags are something...

Quite interesting. In Europe the new Mergers seem be way cheeper in comparison.

My Merger XP35 was about EUR 2.800,- and a Zeiss Dti 6 / 40 is around EUR 2.600,-

A Merger XT50 is less than EUR 5.500,- in Europe.

I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but your prices seem to refer to the U.S.?

 

[Stonefaction]

Those images are spectacular, but the specs on that HikMicro Condor CQ50L are rough. 8.7 degree x 7 degree FOV.

Would be great for wide open areas, but very frustrating in the woods I think.

I have an older Lynx L15 which has 1x/2x/4x/8x zoom and which I tended to use on 2x zoom - which tended to be a good compromise for me. The Condor starts at 3x zoom and it definitely can be a bit frustrating. I've managed to point it directly at Tawny Owl and found Woodcock etc at a distance but wandering through even a small piece of woodland trying to find Woodcock has shown how much I miss the wider FOV of the Lynx, with the bird (which I had a vague idea of where it was) flushing before I found it with the thermal - twice. It may need a different technique from me to use it effectively in woods. Probably scanning ahead a distance while stationary to locate birds etc before then moving towards them, rather than scanning on the move as I'm more used to doing. I could always take, and use, both but I carry way too much gear when I'm out, as things stand anyway. I do have a lightweight NightFox Cub IR monocular which I haven't tried in conjunction with the Condor, which might be my optimal (available) option.

 

[Vollmeise]

My Pulsar has this great feature that since its front cover fell apart, I am constantly afraid that the lens will get scratched, so I always put it in the case if putting it in a bag and when I am already bothering with putting it in the case, I'll remove the battery, so I am no longer getting it drained randomly.

Don't remember what Pulsar model You use, but some shops in Europe offer front covers for 28/38/50 lenses as a spare part.

Cheers)

 

[nmerc_photos]

Thx a lot for this update. Much appreciated!

The Pulsar XT50's NETD is 40mK only, not 20mK. Maybe You can fix that?

As a suggestion: Could you place a new column like "lens interchangeable"? Could be filled with "No" or with the suitable lenses (e.g. "28/38/50 mm" for Pulsar Helion XP line or "20 / 40 mm" for Zeiss Dti 6 line) or "optical zoom", if available.

Cheers)

Can you share where you show that it's 40mK? All of the websites I see show <20mK:





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Thx a lot for this update. Much appreciated!

The Pulsar XT50's NETD is 40mK only, not 20mK. Maybe You can fix that?

As a suggestion: Could you place a new column like "lens interchangeable"? Could be filled with "No" or with the suitable lenses (e.g. "28/38/50 mm" for Pulsar Helion XP line or "20 / 40 mm" for Zeiss Dti 6 line) or "optical zoom", if available.

Cheers)

Yes I think I may.

Indeed thank you @nmerc_photos for the comparison table, it's quite useful. I think another useful column might be unit weight as there are huge differences, these units range from under 300g to well over 700g.

Also, I am also a bit put off by the mixed Zeiss reviews. Some reviews I saw suggested the DTI 6 is at least assembled in house. I guess that almost no one is making all parts of a product like this themselves. Leica thermals are reputed to be made by InfiRay and badged as Leicas. I've not heard anything bad about them quality wise, and I have no qualms with Zeiss using OEMs to provide units or parts. What really matters is quality, price, and warranty. For now the Zeiss DTI 6 seem to have some features that others lack, they have a wide FOV that you're not going to get except in the Pixfra A613 or the InfiRay ZH38, and I would have warranty service available in the country I live in which is of value...

See above. I think I might get rid of some of the less important info (or atleast hide it): aperture, lens focal length, base mag. and then I could add weight and whether or not lenses are interchangeable.

Regarding the Zeiss, I just saw too many negative reviews for me to be interested. I've also known a few friends who got the iRay ZH38 based on paper specs, and were not happy with it. And returned them and went with Pulsar.

I think the "best" thermals out there for birding in tight quarters, based on budget (US dollar) are:

sub $1000 - AGM TM15-384 (used) or AGM TM10-256 (new)
$1000 - $2000 - Pulsar Helion XP28 (used - if you can find one), Pulsar Axion XG30 if not
$2000 - $5000 - Pulsar Merger XP35 binos

honorable mention to the HIKMICRO Falcon FQ35 if it's available in your country and you can find it at a price you like

I'd love to see someone get the Pixfra A613 and report back on it. I still need to review its specs and add it to the list

Quite interesting. In Europe the new Mergers seem be way cheeper in comparison.

My Merger XP35 was about EUR 2.800,- and a Zeiss Dti 6 / 40 is around EUR 2.600,-

A Merger XT50 is less than EUR 5.500,- in Europe.

I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but your prices seem to refer to the U.S.?

I think relatively speaking, those are bargain prices! How do they compare to the monoculars like Telos XP50 and Telos XL50 in Europe?

I heard that Pulsar builds all of these thermal units in Europe, so that could explain why they are cheaper.

Yes, all my prices are in USD.

 

[pbjosh]

One thing to keep in mind with bins is they destroy your night vision in both eyes. For me it’s a non starter. I frequently am scanning while walking and lately have even taken to scanning while cycling (slowly). It sounds looney but works pretty well and I am finding a lot of snipe, foxes, deer, etc this way.

 

[Farnboro John]

One thing to keep in mind with bins is they destroy your night vision in both eyes. For me it’s a non starter. I frequently am scanning while walking and lately have even taken to scanning while cycling (slowly). It sounds looney but works pretty well and I am finding a lot of snipe, foxes, deer, etc this way.

You're right, it does sound looney!!

John

 

[pbjosh]

You're right, it does sound looney!!

John

I only do it on farm paths / cycle paths that are wide enough and basically completely free of other traffic, which is not so hard to find after dark...

 

[opisska]

that's only one step below thermalling while driving, which is the official recommended by ... a professional zoologist

 

[nmerc_photos]

that's only one step below thermalling while driving, which is the official recommended by ... a professional zoologist

For more modern Pulsar thermals (I can't get it to work with my XP28s) I like to hook up an iPad in the vehicle, and then cast the feed from the thermal to the ipad.

That way when driving, if we have more than just 1 person in the car - everyone can look at the thermal information.

It was super effective looking for Great Gray Owls in Sax Zim Bog last year.

 

[Vollmeise]

Can you share where you show that it's 40mK? All of the websites I see show <20mK:

Looks like a size mix-up happened here.

There is a NETD, whichs shows the sensor sensitivity w/o filters or algorithms. And there is sNETD or System NETD, showing sensitivity after filters and algorithms applied.

Merger XP35: NETD 25mK, sNETD 18mK
Merger XT50: NETD 40mK, sNETD 20mK

Specs shown here:

Pulsar Merger LRF | Thermal Imaging Binocular

The Pulsar Merger LRF thermal imaging binoculars – premium quality and classic design for convenient and informative nature observation in various situations.

pulsarvision.com

I'd love to see I think relatively speaking, those are bargain prices! How do they compare to the monoculars like Telos XP50 and Telos XL50 in Europe?

Merger XP35 = 2.800,- EUR
Merger XT50 = 5.500,- EUR
Telos XP50 = 2.640,- EUR
Telos XL50 = 3.490,- EUR

 

[Mono]

Found this YouTube channel that has reviews of many thermals.

Optics Trade

Optics Trade is a story of how passion grew into a business. But ours is not like any other. It is a story of how we grew and nurtured our online store into becoming one with a versatile product range and substantial stock. What is our recipe? Passion for testing and reviewing products, mixed...

youtube.com

 

[nmerc_photos]

Looks like a size mix-up happened here.

There is a NETD, whichs shows the sensor sensitivity w/o filters or algorithms. And there is sNETD or System NETD, showing sensitivity after filters and algorithms applied.

Merger XP35: NETD 25mK, sNETD 18mK
Merger XT50: NETD 40mK, sNETD 20mK

Specs shown here:

Pulsar Merger LRF | Thermal Imaging Binocular

The Pulsar Merger LRF thermal imaging binoculars – premium quality and classic design for convenient and informative nature observation in various situations.

pulsarvision.com

Merger XP35 = 2.800,- EUR
Merger XT50 = 5.500,- EUR
Telos XP50 = 2.640,- EUR
Telos XL50 = 3.490,- EUR

ahhhh.... annoying. I think I've probably been using sNETD on all of mine.

I'll have to put some time in and double check everything. thanks for the correction.

the fact that the Merger XP50 is cheaper than the Telos XL50 is ridiculous!

do you experience the night blindness when using a bino instead of monocular? my understanding is that the benefit of the bino is reduced eye fatigue when using it for extended periods (think a hunter sitting in one spot for 4 hours).

for my use case, I'm generally out walking for less than 2 hours, and just scanning periodically. I'd love the XP35 FOV and resolution as a middle ground between XP28/XL50.

 

[Vollmeise]

do you experience the night blindness when using a bino instead of monocular? my understanding is that the benefit of the bino is reduced eye fatigue when using it for extended periods (think a hunter sitting in one spot for 4 hours).

I avoid eye fatigue or temporary night blindness by choosing the pure red color palette at night. I always do this regardless of whether I use a thermal mono or bino. During the day I choose "white hot".

Regardless of this, it is much more pleasant to observe with the merger / a bino. Whether for a short time or for hours.

 

[SnowyO]

Yeah I definitely need to look into alternative brands. I really like Pulsar, but it seems they may be asleep at the wheel recently. A lot of the thermal hunting groups I'm in are using new "up and coming" brands. Other brands seem to be more open to wider FOV.

Would you mind sharing names of some of the "up and coming" brands from the thermal hunting groups?

 

[Ignatius]

This isn't a forum for hunters or those that support hunting.

 

[SnowyO]

This isn't a forum for hunters or those that support hunting.

One doesn't have to be a hunter or support hunting to seek thermal imagers info. I am not.
Nor did I assume the person I was replying to was.

 

[Ignatius]

No, of course it is not mandatory to be a hunter to be interested in thermal vision. I too am interested in those devices, but ...

Yeah I definitely need to look into alternative brands. I really like Pulsar, but it seems they may be asleep at the wheel recently. A lot of the thermal hunting groups I'm in are using new "up and coming" brands. Other brands seem to be more open to wider FOV.

...

Would you mind sharing names of some of the "up and coming" brands from the thermal hunting groups?