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Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements (1 Viewer)

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal

Very interesting 'detail' of the Z mount mike .... explains the large diameter. This, in combination with the short FFD should make for inherent geometry that is suitable for fast aperture really wide angles. It should also allow plenty of latitude for IBIS by sensor shift. Both welcome features. Looks like Nikon is headed in the right direction here .....


Chosun :gh:
 

Vespobuteo

Well-known member
Very interesting 'detail' of the Z mount mike .... explains the large diameter. This, in combination with the short FFD should make for inherent geometry that is suitable for fast aperture really wide angles. It should also allow plenty of latitude for IBIS by sensor shift. Both welcome features. Looks like Nikon is headed in the right direction here .....
Chosun :gh:

Did you see any rumors on nikon IBIS?

I'm not sure they will do it, at least not in FF bodies.

ISO performance is good enough, VR in lens is enough.

MFT cameras is more in need of IBIS.
And maybe mostly important for video.

But we'll see in April...
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Did you see any rumors on nikon IBIS?

I'm not sure they will do it, at least not in FF bodies.

ISO performance is good enough, VR in lens is enough.

MFT cameras is more in need of IBIS.
And maybe mostly important for video.

But we'll see in April...
No, I haven't seen any credible detail on IBIS, but it's one of the inherent structural possibilities with Mirrorless. It's good to see the new mount has been specified with enough latitude to accommodate it at a future point.

The MFT cameras currently hold the record for IS at the moment at around 5&1/2 to 5&2/3 stops (from memory), and while FF does have better high ISO performance, don't forget that lower ISO's will always deliver better DR even for FF. I could imagine a scenario with a nice long 600mm f4 PF (perhaps with 2x TC) hanging off the front of the new FF Mirrorless - as much IS as possible is desirable under that setup, and the combination of IBIS and lens VR allows a more closely matched frequency response to handheld vibration patterns and amplitudes.

It might not be on the launch iteration, but at least it hasn't been designed out of the equation. At this point I think it's more important to get to market before Canon do with the FF - surely they are quietly plotting and scheming too, and it undoubtedly means more to Nikon than to Canon who already have significant APS-C Mirrorless presence .....


Chosun :gh:
 

Vespobuteo

Well-known member
No, I haven't seen any credible detail on IBIS, but it's one of the inherent structural possibilities with Mirrorless. It's good to see the new mount has been specified with enough latitude to accommodate it at a future point.

The MFT cameras currently hold the record for IS at the moment at around 5&1/2 to 5&2/3 stops (from memory), and while FF does have better high ISO performance, don't forget that lower ISO's will always deliver better DR even for FF. I could imagine a scenario with a nice long 600mm f4 PF (perhaps with 2x TC) hanging off the front of the new FF Mirrorless - as much IS as possible is desirable under that setup, and the combination of IBIS and lens VR allows a more closely matched frequency response to handheld vibration patterns and amplitudes.

It might not be on the launch iteration, but at least it hasn't been designed out of the equation. At this point I think it's more important to get to market before Canon do with the FF - surely they are quietly plotting and scheming too, and it undoubtedly means more to Nikon than to Canon who already have significant APS-C Mirrorless presence .....


Chosun :gh:

Panasonic claims 6.5 stops with DualIS in the Lumix G9 up to 280mm eqv. focal length.
6.5 stops seem to be the limit of what is possible in theory is my impression.

Sony IBIS is clearly behind Pana and Olympus.

Latest Nikon VR lenses I think is 4.5 stops now.

In my world, 4.5 stops is plenty as when we get below 1/125s you won't freeze any movement, and often you prefer at least 1/250 or even 1/500.

At 1000+ mm I think a tripod is pretty useful in most cases.

Will be interesting to see what Nikon does with the
mirrorless this time. They are not stupid and can learn from
others (and their own) mistakes.
 
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Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Panasonic claims 6.5 stops with DualIS in the Lumix G9 up to 280mm eqv. focal length.
6.5 stops seem to be the limit of what is possible in theory is my impression.

Sony IBIS is clearly behind Pana and Olympus.

Latest Nikon VR lenses I think is 4.5 stops now.

In my world, 4.5 stops is plenty as when we get below 1/125s you won't freeze any movement, and often you prefer at least 1/250 or even 1/500.

At 1000+ mm I think a tripod is pretty useful in most cases.

Will be interesting to see what Nikon does with the
mirrorless this time. They are not stupid and can learn from
others (and their own) mistakes.
It WILL be interesting to see what Nikon does with Mirrorless.

It will also be interesting to see if they immediately, or down the track go with an IBIS (hard to see them not to when the competition does and Nikon has stated a desire to lead the pack - and it's a tangible feature that comes at very small cost and weight penalties)

The 4.5 stops of Nikon's VR might be good, but 5.5, or 6.5 would be better - remember it's not just about what shutter speeds you can get down to at a reasonable ISO, but by how much you can drop the ISO for a desired shutter speed. Usually for fast moving raptors, or flitting little geewhizzits you would want around 1/2000th of a second.

A tripod is useful at 1000mm+ ..... but not nearly as much fun as handheld! :)

You are right though, with Nikon amongst the last to the party as it were, they have had the opportunity to learn from all the pioneering efforts (mistakes AND successes) of others (and their own with the "1" series). It will be interesting to see if Niki can arrive as the Belle of the Ball ! :)



Chosun :gh:
 

HermitIbis

Well-known member
[...] the opportunity to learn from all the pioneering efforts (mistakes AND successes) of others (and their own with the "1" series).

Whatever it is, it will have a smaller crop factor than the 2.7 of the N1 series. I might still like the next reincarnation, no high expectations though. If the new kit lens is a Nikkor 600 PF ...
 

etudiant

Registered User
Supporter
I don't understand the emphasis on FF cameras for bird photography. It is brute force at the expense of usability in the field.
Obviously there are advantages in terms of diffraction limits to resolution, but the offset is the huge lenses required. Making a long lens light and compact implies a small sensor, but with good sensor technology, high ISO and pixel size in the 1 micron class should be feasible. I'd much rather have innovation on that front than yet another hulking piece of optics 'innovation'.
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Whatever it is, it will have a smaller crop factor than the 2.7 of the N1 series. I might still like the next reincarnation, no high expectations though. If the new kit lens is a Nikkor 600 PF ...
Well FF and APS-C Mirrorless will be locked in, but I'd also like to see the interchangeable lens N1 Mirrorless system revived/continued.

For all 3 formats I'd like to see fully functioning adapters for F mount lens, as well as sensible ranges of native lenses. Let the customer decide! This becomes workable in practice - especially if Nikon proceeds apace with further PF lenses. A fully functioning adapted 600mm f4 (or f5.6) PF on a Nikon 1 V4 could be a beautiful thing! :) :king:

I'd also like to see that interchangeable N1 sensor leveraged into a Sony RX10 IV style super zoom bridge camera too as an upscale adjunct to their smaller sensor P900 line.

I don't think there is anything to be gained by playing in the MFT 2x crop factor space, as everything can be handled by the 1" format (extreme reach), and APS-C (higher IQ) either side of the sensor size scale.

It's not rocket science, it's just a matter of appropriately leveraging and scaling common operating technology without limitations. Importantly, this will mean removing artificial protections of existing market segmentations and putting the customer first. What a novel strategy! :)


Chosun :gh:
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
I don't understand the emphasis on FF cameras for bird photography. It is brute force at the expense of usability in the field.
Obviously there are advantages in terms of diffraction limits to resolution, but the offset is the huge lenses required. Making a long lens light and compact implies a small sensor, but with good sensor technology, high ISO and pixel size in the 1 micron class should be feasible. I'd much rather have innovation on that front than yet another hulking piece of optics 'innovation'.
It's true that FF capability for birds is redundant in some situations, but in others (low light, shallow dof requirements) it is essential.

The whole rational for these larger format Mirrorless systems, particularly when paired with PF Super Telephotos is to provide a physically smaller, lighter long range birding/wildlife outfit (with appropriate grip ergonomics add-ons hopefully!) whilst maintaining the larger sensor IQ benefits, along with the versatility to change to smaller wide angle, and generalist zooms, and portrait primes for example, as a handy walk around street/ travel set up.

It should be about maximizing utility and value for the customer to set-up as it suits them.

If Nikon is able to offer this fully functional versatility (also read adapters, adapter/converters, and value to the customer) across all 3 formats (FF, APS-C 1.5x, and 1" 2.7x) and Mirrorless/DSLR platforms in class leading product offerings, then it could win itself Lots and Lots of fans.

Nikon needs to ignore any competition from internal product lines, and stop trying to rigidly protect individual segments, and realize it is under the pump from external traditional photographic competition and offer versatile, value filled product systems which will negate those substitutions (particularly the MFT threat).

Moreover, such a strategy (along with the critical addressing of connectivity and image work flow ease, and control by smartphone compatibility ) is the only way it has any chance of dealing with the rapidly growing weight of competition from smartphone photography, apps, and social media.

It will be fascinating with these Mirrorless product launches to see if Nikon reveals itself to be a company of the future, or the past ......



Chosun :gh:
 

Vespobuteo

Well-known member
I don't understand the emphasis on FF cameras for bird photography. It is brute force at the expense of usability in the field.
Obviously there are advantages in terms of diffraction limits to resolution, but the offset is the huge lenses required. Making a long lens light and compact implies a small sensor, but with good sensor technology, high ISO and pixel size in the 1 micron class should be feasible. I'd much rather have innovation on that front than yet another hulking piece of optics 'innovation'.

Is there an emphasis? :smoke:

My feeling is that the use of DX is increasing since the IQ is often good enough even at higher ISO (D500).

FF still is useful when you can get closer to the subject. From a hide etc. Sometimes it can be nice to be able to "Zoom out" a prime lens switching to FF from DX.
 

opticoholic

Well-known member
Part of the "emphasis" on FX comes from Nikon itself. They clearly have tried very hard to convince all their DX customers that they should "upgrade" to FX. But I completely agree that a full frame sensor is mostly wasted on wild bird photography. I think the best format for bird photography is either APS-C / DX or micro-4/3.

Changing the subject, I just saw this thing on Nikon's preparation for the Olympics...
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/10/...pyeongchang-winter-olympics.aspx/#more-119596

Good grief! I wonder if instead of working so hard to put on such an impressive showing at the Olympics, what if Nikon instead put all that energy into maybe, I don't know, producing a competitive mirrorless camera?!? ...then maybe I would like them better as a camera company. I remember reading how important the Olympics are to Canon and Nikon, but this really drives that home... Someone needs to help me understand. It seems to have nothing to do with making a great product; its all about bragging rights I guess? Also I'm kind of scratching my head as to why Nikon Professional Services sets up this "stable" at the Olympics with more gear than any store has on hand... If I'm a Nikon pro I would think I would come to the Olympics with my own gear in hand. So why do they need to set up this place with a vast trove of gear? Is it to rent to professionals?

Dave
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Part of the "emphasis" on FX comes from Nikon itself. They clearly have tried very hard to convince all their DX customers that they should "upgrade" to FX. But I completely agree that a full frame sensor is mostly wasted on wild bird photography. I think the best format for bird photography is either APS-C / DX or micro-4/3.

Changing the subject, I just saw this thing on Nikon's preparation for the Olympics...
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/10/...pyeongchang-winter-olympics.aspx/#more-119596

Good grief! I wonder if instead of working so hard to put on such an impressive showing at the Olympics, what if Nikon instead put all that energy into maybe, I don't know, producing a competitive mirrorless camera?!? ...then maybe I would like them better as a camera company. I remember reading how important the Olympics are to Canon and Nikon, but this really drives that home... Someone needs to help me understand. It seems to have nothing to do with making a great product; its all about bragging rights I guess? Also I'm kind of scratching my head as to why Nikon Professional Services sets up this "stable" at the Olympics with more gear than any store has on hand... If I'm a Nikon pro I would think I would come to the Olympics with my own gear in hand. So why do they need to set up this place with a vast trove of gear? Is it to rent to professionals?

Dave
It is true that both Nikon and Canon have tried to pull customers to the higher margin FF format. Though they have also given us such wonderful APS-C tools as the D500 and 7DII.

Part of the tantalizing prospect of the FF Nikon D850 is that at 46MP you virtually have a ~20MP DX camera contained within using the in-camera DX crop modes.

Now if Nikon can come out with a 46MP+ FF Mirrorless offering that without compromise nails AF, EVF, IQ (as they have stated as goals), with sufficient fps, connectivity, adapters/TC combos, and importantly retains a sizeable grip option for ergonomics, but in a smaller lighter package, and retains the 1.5x DX and even 2x (DX +1.3x) in-camera crop modes --- then we are starting to have a more compelling argument. You virtually have a 3 stage zoom at varying MP's available :t:

Ideally Nikon would have had a mythical 600mm f4 PF floating around at the Olympics for practical real world testing (perhaps Canon has it's DO version secretly out there, and a regular Sony 400 f2.8 has been sighted ....) , or at the very least had it's high spec FF Mirrorless already in trial use at the Olympics, or even fully to market.

Neither of those happened though, so the ~ $8Million worth of Nikon gear there is as vital professional customer support, and a critical part of the 'ecosystem' offering. I'm sure Canon has a matching support facility. You would have to get the inside mail from professional photographers to find out what the commercial terms and arrangements are. I would guess that there is a range from fully supported pros to various leasing and rental options, to freelancers who would be able to get an emergency resolved on a pay for service basis.

Given the lack of Mirrorless to market, it's disappointing that Nikon hasn't leveraged this Pro service offering and support with a heavier marketing campaign - the interwebs etc are pin drop quiet ......


Chosun :gh:
 

etudiant

Registered User
Supporter
Changing the subject, I just saw this thing on Nikon's preparation for the Olympics...
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/02/10/...pyeongchang-winter-olympics.aspx/#more-119596

Good grief! why do they need to set up this place with a vast trove of gear? Is it to rent to professionals?

Dave

Flashing a huge stockpile seems to be part of the Olympic ritual for Canon and Nikon, as reported here:

https://petapixel.com/2018/02/12/canons-nikons-crazy-dslr-stockpiles-2018-olympics/

As there are a lot of photographers, (I saw a mention of at least 60 national representatives ) there is perhaps a plausible basis for setting up a $10-20 million component pool. Just wonder where the gear gets sold afterwards and at what price.
 

Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Flashing a huge stockpile seems to be part of the Olympic ritual for Canon and Nikon, as reported here:

https://petapixel.com/2018/02/12/canons-nikons-crazy-dslr-stockpiles-2018-olympics/

As there are a lot of photographers, (I saw a mention of at least 60 national representatives ) there is perhaps a plausible basis for setting up a $10-20 million component pool. Just wonder where the gear gets sold afterwards and at what price.

Lol. I only had 300 odd ~$25K luxury cars ..... :)

Gear heaven regardless! Pity they have buried the investment on enthusiast blogs, and waiting for the reporting to slowly trickle through specialist media.

A general press release would have gained much more traction (and billions more eyeballs) through mainstream news channels. They could have leveraged some 'special interest' reports from the mainstream media too - they're always keen on that sort of stuff as filler /background etc. I'm sure with such widespread country representation it could also have been personalised by tracing 'Fred Nerkus' back to his hometown - Smallville, anywhere, and the journey onto the big worldwide stage as a critical screwdriver twirler behind the scenes :-O

Interesting Nikon Pro blog story on Ice Skating - plenty of f2, and f2.8 gear being put through its paces at 1/5000th sec ..... maybe I need to up my shutter speeds a bit for BIF ! 3:)
http://nps.nikonimaging.com/blog/03/


Chosun :gh:
 

Vespobuteo

Well-known member
Interesting Nikon Pro blog story on Ice Skating - plenty of f2, and f2.8 gear being put through its paces at 1/5000th sec ..... maybe I need to up my shutter speeds a bit for BIF ! 3:)
http://nps.nikonimaging.com/blog/03/

Chosun :gh:

Nice shots at ISO6400. 1/5000th sec is probably on the safe side, the portrait at 1/2500 is definitely safe for motion blur but with the D5, high ISO is no worries.:t:
 
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nikonmike

Well-known member
:eek!:Wish Nikon would hurry up, ime thinking of selling my 1 series V2 and FT1 but as little chance as there is that Nikon will reinvent it its just my luck they will if i sell it.
 

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