Nikon FF (and DX) Mirrorless rumours/ announcements (3 Viewers)

[Chosun Juan]

Yup, that Z6 looks like a pretty nice camera for non-bird photography and the size of the camera itself is pretty close to the flagship micro-4/3 camera bodies (see attached image). It's a lot of camera and the price also is not too far from the price at introduction of those top micro-4/3 bodies. Of course the lenses will be larger for the Nikon, especially because they will often be very fast... People demand super fast f/2 and lower lenses, which tends to make the physical size of the lenses bigger. Plus all the lenses regardless of speed have to be optically superb so as not to be out-resolved by the 45 MP sensor on the Z7, and this also tends to make the lenses larger/more optically complex with large elements. If the lenses were made with a more moderate maximum aperture of 2.8 or 4, they could be a little smaller and more proportional to the small Z body. Take a look at this photo and look especially at the size of the lenses compared to the Z body. First you notice how huge that Noct is, but of course it is if it is well made at f/.95. But even the f/2.8 zoom is nearly as big (on the left in the photo). Even if the grip is really nice and comfortable, those lenses will sort of dwarf the Z body. The lens mounted on the camera is an 14-30 f/4 zoom. That lens is a little more proportional to the body. I will say that I really like what they did making that Z mount so big and oversized, because it should make it easier to control vignetting for all lenses wide open but also to make ultra-wide angle lenses without the bulbous front element. That 14-30 f/4 looks like it would accept a flat filter in front, and I like that. I think most every current 14mm f-mount lens has the bulbous front element. The 14-30 could be a fantastic landscape lens, TBD depending on distortion, field curvature, flaring, etc.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for those size comparison photos you posted - very telling! Makes the new mirrorless seem like a very nice compromise between the large mount and small body size - and I suppose that, in the end was the aim .... to offer FF IQ advantages in a smaller more portable body. Sure the high speed lenses are still going to be big - but they are also going to be high speed! The f4 lenses seem nicely compact, and the wide angle zoom reminds me of my Tokina 12-28 f4 (although it is DX only). The new 14-30 f4 certainly covers the range offered by Tamron's excellent 15-30 f2.8 , if not the speed.

There was an interesting cutaway photo of the new Z6 mirrorless body and 24-70 f4 lens in that link you posted.
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/024...-future-z-mount-lenses?slide=10&imageViewer=1

I had thought that the mirrorless body would in fact be a bit thinner, but you can see they've left plenty of room inside ..... one thing that did surprise me though is just how much glass they still have in the EVF lens, even though they have lost the massive optical penta prism as shown in the D850 cutaway. I suppose as the cost of the EVF display electronics comes down they can use slightly bigger displays and less glass - potentially the thickness of the mirrorless body could nearly halve .....



Chosun :gh:

 

[Vespobuteo]

Yes, this is a grindingly slow pace of development from Nikon ....

Of course the ultimate is to redesign the lens for Z mount without an empty tube at the rear - fully realizing the size and weight advantages. It looks like Nikon thinks this will place too much competitive pressure on its DSLR range - though this first iteration of the mirrorless is hamstrung by no 2nd card slot, small buffer, small shot life from the battery, and ultimately less than DSLR ideal grip ergonomics for the serious big telephoto birder.

Maybe one of the third party lens makers will come up with a killer PF supertelephoto? ..... 600mm PF in f5.6, f4.5, or f4, natively designed for the Z mount ..... there's certainly money and a growth in market share to be made there.

Overall, I think Nikon has missed a trick for birders to stop the leakage to the smaller, lighter MFT systems ..... :cat:

Chosun :gh:

The "good news" is that the Z-mount have 4 "latches" (instead of 3 in the F mount) so the mount should be less prone to play and stronger. But if using the FTZ adapter + a TC we still have 2 "rattling" F mount points. A very good reason for having both long lenses and TC:s in the Z-mount.

With the slow pace Nikon sets out I guess I will have to need cryogenics to be able to experience that.

Buffer will clear pretty quick with a fast XQD cards. Future express-cards might be even faster.

Battery life seems way better than the CIPA 330 shots rating. Some report over 1000+ shots and a few video clips on 1 charge. There was some error in the specs saying 10-15 minutes video first, but now it's corrected to "85 min. of movie recording" (users report over 100 min.) 2 batteries might actually be enough for a day in the field.

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-p....html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs

What Nikon have done excellent seem to be the viewfinder and the responsive touch interface. Probably a reason why Nikon have been a bit slow awaiting fast enough tech. The resolution of the viewfinder does not drop at higher shooting speeds for example, like in other mirrorless.

When it comes to AF Nikon have said that the Z cams will have AF that are pretty much equal to the D850 in performance. Since there are only pre-production samples out there we'll have to wait to see about that.

The grip seems to be praised as well, to me it's a bit strange but I cross my fingers that it will work for me as well (without crossing my fingers). If so, I might take a jump on the Z train eventually.

 

[willie45]

A lot of criticism of these cameras by some youtube reviewers. I know most new cameras get a bit of stick from some quarters but there does seem to be a number of genuine reservations being expressed by generally thoughtful people. Of course no-one will know until we have a proper look at production models. I wouldn't be looking to buy one of the Zs at the moment. For general photographic use with a mirrorless camera, I'm happy with my Fuji. It will, though, be interesting to see how the released cameras perform and also what Canon can produce now.

 

[Vespobuteo]

A lot of criticism of these cameras by some youtube reviewers. I know most new cameras get a bit of stick from some quarters but there does seem to be a number of genuine reservations being expressed by generally thoughtful people. I wouldn't be interested in one of the Zs at the moment for general photographic use. I'm interested in what Canon can produce now.

I would wait until production models are tested by reliable reviewers until drawing to much conclusions on performance. Current firmware tested was 0.51 according to Dpreview. These Z cameras might not be the primary choice for action/sports today. But a lot of things can happen in the final and future firmware upgrades. I also think that there might be a learning curve here as the AF-modes and settings are quite different than the DSLR:s. Hopefully Nikon is listening to the feedback they will get.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/5

Canon are even more famous than Nikon for their product segmentation and protection of their high end models. So not expecting any miracles from Canon either.

 

[willie45]

|=)|

I would wait until production models are tested by reliable reviewers until drawing to much conclusions on performance. Current firmware tested was 0.51 according to Dpreview. These Z cameras might not be the primary choice for action/sports today. But a lot of things can happen in the final and future firmware upgrades. I also think that there might be a learning curve here as the AF-modes and settings are quite different than the DSLR:s. Hopefully Nikon is listening to the feedback they will get.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/5

Canon are even more famous than Nikon for their product segmentation and protection of their high end models. So not expecting any miracles from Canon either.

Yes you're absolutely right about the production models and I did edit my post after I posted it to reflect what I meant to say. In the meantime for some reason our posts crossed. ( It's the downside of posting when you're lying in bed half awake. Apologies for my confusing post )

I also agree re Canon and that they aren't likely to buck their historical behaviours. I am interested though because surely they must do something to pull their socks up. Who knows?

An interesting time for photographers. Maybe not much for wildlife shooters to get excited about though. Currently I'm more energised by the forthcoming XT-3 as I use Fuji for general photography.

 

[nikonmike]

Z camera defended by Sony user

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKN68FwOkCM

 

[Vespobuteo]

Steve Perry on the Z7/Z6 (based on specs + other users experience), "Z:s not optimal for wildlife, currently a D7500 would be more suitable".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMTtAi5oPoo

Valid points of course, but it will depend on your special application and shooting style. The fact that the Z6 is full-frame, have better video and is small and light would make it a good complement to a D500 or D7500.

The main point here I think would be that Nikon gets the Z6/7 AF-system on level with the D850, or at least close to.

 

[Chosun Juan]

Two very good points made by Richard Butler from DPReview:
1. Nikon needs to open up the Z lens mount protocols to Third Party lens makers to speed the range of lenses to market.
2. Nikon needs to refine the AF system algorithms and operating system and interface to match it's state of the art 3D Tracking AF system performance.
https://m.dpreview.com/opinion/9336...p-for-nikon-but-they-need-to-keep-being-brave

I'd go further and say that the AF system performance needs to go a step beyond 3D performance into something better than we've ever seen before .....




Chosun :gh:

 

[Vespobuteo]

Two very good points made by Richard Butler from DPReview:
1. Nikon needs to open up the Z lens mount protocols to Third Party lens makers to speed the range of lenses to market.
2. Nikon needs to refine the AF system algorithms and operating system and interface to match it's state of the art 3D Tracking AF system performance.
https://m.dpreview.com/opinion/9336...p-for-nikon-but-they-need-to-keep-being-brave

I'd go further and say that the AF system performance needs to go a step beyond 3D performance into something better than we've ever seen before .....

Chosun :gh:

"On whether Nikon releases a pro model like the D5 in the Z line, he said: "Count on it!"
He anticipates that the third party will reverse-engineer the Z lens."

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/26/...in-the-z-line-count-on-it.aspx/#ixzz5PMxept9o

For wildlife fast and reliable single point and group focus is all I need.

But auto eye/face detection for wolfs, bears and birds would be nice perhaps...o

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facial-recognition-for-birds

Should be "easy" with AI and machine learning.

 

[opticoholic]

Putting aside the drawbacks of the new Z cameras for bird photography and thinking more in terms of general all-round photography, I really think the new S lenses are key to the success of the Z6 and Z7 more than any other one thing. Camera bodies evolve, but lenses are more long-term. These are enthusiast cameras, and enthusiasts want the best lenses. The new wide Z-mount with a shallow flange distance offers an opportunity for significantly better lenses. But if there is any doubt in whether those lenses will materialize... if Nikon's first lenses come out and people say they aren't really any better than stuff that is already out there... if I have to just plan to keep using my F-mount glass with the FTZ adapter indefinitely... Well then as a typical prospective enthusiast customer (who probably already has a current hot camera), I may just bide my time. And there probably won't be any 3rd party native Z-mount lenses announced right away because Nikon is keeping the new mount details private. So Nikon really needs to hit it out of the park with these new "S" line lenses. They need to come in with very high marks in all categories and glowing reviews... If they do that, if the lenses have class-leading performance, then that will help make the difference between a very successful launch and a middling, slow entry into the market space (And speaking of slow, they also need to fix the supply shortage problems; I hear D850's are still not available after a whole year!).

Nikon is hyping the new S lenses with words like "new-dimensional optical performance including outstanding resolution that can keep pace with future..." and "newly established standards of quality control" ... I'm skeptical... In recent years Nikon has produced a lot of cheap plastic lenses and even their very best lenses have been received by many as disappointing and overpriced... And these first 3 new S lenses don't really look like anything special (putting aside the Noct 58mm f0.95, which will cost a fortune). But I'm rooting for them!

Dave

 

[opticoholic]

Chosun,
I will just add, in the interest of having a dialog and not just making a speech, I think the performance of the new S lenses is more important than the AF system setting a new standard... As important as C-AF and tracking is to bird photographers, we may just have to keep being patient with mirrorless systems in that regard, and I think Nikon has more basic urgent priorities.

Dave

 

[etudiant]

Chosun,
I will just add,.... I think the performance of the new S lenses is more important than the AF system setting a new standard...
Dave

I believe you will find very strong agreement with this conclusion among the photography pros.
Their thought is why bother if the result is not, but only just as good?

 

[Vespobuteo]

The 35/1.8 S-line looks very sharp over most of the image area even at f1.8 in the sample shots. According to the specs it's made of magnesium alloy. At twice the price of the standard plasticky 35/f1.8 and half price of the pro AF-S 35/f1.4 ED it's definitely not cheap, but it seems that it might give more image quality for the buck than the other two. Build quality will be interesting to investigate but I don't expect the tank-like build of a 35/1.4 ED.

The D850 have been in stock around here (Europe) for quite a while now. I can find it in stock in 10-12 shops right now. The US demand for the D850 must have been extremely high, or maybe the US distribution is not working well?

 

[opticoholic]

Yeah, I think I'm different from a lot of customers. There is SO much emphasis on speed, shallow depth of field and bokeh. I would be perfectly happy with an f/1.8 lens so long as the lens performs great wide open at f/1.8. I wish more lenses were designed with average maximum apertures between f/4 and f/2, but still with the goal of maximum possible quality/performance. The result would be lenses that are a little lighter, smaller, and less expensive while still serving as excellent tools. On a normal or wide angle lens, f/2 is plenty of speed/blur for me most of the time.

I hope the new S 35mm and 50mm primes clearly out-perform the existing f-mount alternatives at the same apertures. For example, the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 has been very popular but it is pretty big, weighs 1.8 lbs. and costs $950. Imagine if the new Nikon S 50mm f/1.8 was equal or better in every way starting at f/1.8, with half the weight and at only $600. No guarantee this will be true of course, but the new Z-mount is what lets me hope that maybe it could be true. We'll just have to wait and see.

Dave

 

[Chosun Juan]

Vespo, Dave,

I will address your posts together since there is a lot of overlap - particularly now that we are getting some of the nitty gritty as provided in interviews with Nikon engineers and executives:
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/28/another-nikon-z-interview.aspx/
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/28/ir-interview-with-nikon-engineers.aspx/

I think it is interesting that Nikon is now throwing in a free XQD card, as well as the discounted FTZ adapter.

Several interesting things have come to light for me:
1. There are no cross-type AF sensors ! - hence perhaps some of the less than stellar reports so far of AF performance .... I agree that the Z mount /S lenses are a major part of the game (along with FTZ full compatibility and functuonality) , but that the AF performance has to be up to snuff - at least D850 level .... maybe they can make some significant firmware upgrades before release, but I'm not overly confident on this front - it seems very much a toe in the water exercise.
2. The EVF even though of equal leading resolution (@3.6Mdots) is 'only' a 60fps refresh rate vs the Sony a7R III's 100Hz ..... this doesn't compel me to jump on board - call me when they are at 200Hz.
3. Even though the Z mount seems a triumph and future proofed out to the far horizons, these Z6 /Z7 offerings are very much just the start of the journey. Clearly flagged on the near horizon are a direct Sony a9 competitor (the Z9) , and more entry level mirrorless models. Perhaps they will nail a state of the art AF system with the Z9 - they will have to ! It's enticing to think where Sony will be by then with their a7R and a9 models.
4. It seems that the DSLR models will have new generations and remain top of the performance heap - I'd expect updates to LCD (OLED) screens, better, faster processing and hence AF (or fps), and perhaps even I would predict a hybrid OVF with some electronic overlay capabilities.
5. It is also clear that a Z8 will come along with ~70 - 80MP, and this might accompany a similar resolution upgrade to the D850. Certainly that's the reason behind the 'S' line lenses - they are purpose designed for better resolution and higher performance.
6. The only drawback seems to be the speed of which the lenses will make their way to market - I'm concerned that by the time some decent, fast, lightweight supertelephotos make it to a native Z mount, that I will be salivating over the then rumoured curved sensor mirrorless diffractive optics range ! :eek!: :-O
7. Reading between the lines it seems that Nikon fully expects the Z mount to be reverse engineered by third party lens makers and that they don't expect this to be too difficult .....
Unfortunately I don't think we'll see any Z supertelephoto PF primes until the current consumer 150-600's are converted to Z mount.

So it seems that despite wishful thinking for some wildlife /birding versatility, this is not the case, and this mirrorless toe in the water is strictly a street / landscape / walkabout travel / video offering.

With Canon set to debut lightweight Mk III versions of its big whites, and Sony moving the game on with it's new lightweight (<2.9kg) 400 f2.8 - Nikon is going to have to pull out the stops to keep up and lighten their supertelephotos in time for the Tokyo Olympics. The need to recoup this F mount investment gives me no great hope for long Z mount lenses - they had their chance with the 500 f5.6 PF ........ :-C
I have no doubt a Z9 will be available for Tokyo 2020 - but what lenses will it use ?? Looks like the D5(S) will still be Nikon's performance flagship for then ....

I think the generation after that though - all bets are off ......



Chosun :gh:

 

[Vespobuteo]

There was a time when the average photo journalist struggled with a couple of D2x or D3s etc.
Nowadays full-size bodies like the D5 has become more of a special tool for action (sports, wildlife) using mostly long lenses. The benefit for telephoto lenses with the Z-mount might not be enough to motivate a mirrorless D6 at this stage. Also the poor battery life is still an issue with mirrorless. Maybe 20fps might be of interest for some but 20-24MP resolution is more than enough for most action shooters.

Most likely the Z9 will be a larger body than the Z7/6 but I don't think that Nikon is ready to replace D5 with mirrorless just yet. The D850 is said to be the best and most versatile camera that has been produced to this date. A mirrorless sequel of the D850 seems quite logical and I think that it will be the next mirrorless Nikon model, named Z900 perhaps. Until then the Z6/7 are handy aperitifs and Nikon film makers are probably the happiest right now.

No doubt there are mind boggling strategy decisions for Nikon to handle in the future. But maybe you should see the Z-mount as an extension rather than a replacement for F-mount. But no doubt the interest for and sales of some type of lenses and camera models in the Nikon lineup will decrease gradually, and others will take over. At what speed the market will decide, but eventually the F-mount will belong to the past.

 

[Chosun Juan]

Yes, I agree with most of what you've said.

It's pretty clear now where Nikon are headed, and I'm sure they have a detailed 5-10 year strategic plan tucked away for their eyes only.

Last year they flagged that there's no need to rush mirrorless development for up to 5 years - ergo DSLR's will be the performance flagships with mirrorless increasingly nipping at their heels. It has since come to light that the DSLR D5 will have a D6 model supercede it expected next year, and I would expect we will get wind of a similar D500 upgrade soonish too. https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=366483

So it's parallel development for the next 5 years or so with DSLR's taking care of the supertelephoto arena. The biggest limitation to my mind to the eventual takeover of DSLR systems by Mirrorless is getting those native Z mount supertelephoto's up and running .... I think that will take a while .....

Even Thom seems to agree (he's been reading this thread again!
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslrs-dead-in-transition-or.html


Thom also makes some salient observations over the Mirrorless Z launch - I have to say I agree with him - anything after the build-up, ie. the actual launch and particularly post launch narrative could have been done better.
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-nikon-marketing-fail.html




Chosun :gh:

 

[Vespobuteo]

Yes, I agree with most of what you've said.

It's pretty clear now where Nikon are headed, and I'm sure they have a detailed 5-10 year strategic plan tucked away for their eyes only.

Last year they flagged that there's no need to rush mirrorless development for up to 5 years - ergo DSLR's will be the performance flagships with mirrorless increasingly nipping at their heels. It has since come to light that the DSLR D5 will have a D6 model supercede it expected next year, and I would expect we will get wind of a similar D500 upgrade soonish too. https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=366483

So it's parallel development for the next 5 years or so with DSLR's taking care of the supertelephoto arena. The biggest limitation to my mind to the eventual takeover of DSLR systems by Mirrorless is getting those native Z mount supertelephoto's up and running .... I think that will take a while .....

Even Thom seems to agree (he's been reading this thread again!
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/dslrs-dead-in-transition-or.html


Thom also makes some salient observations over the Mirrorless Z launch - I have to say I agree with him - anything after the build-up, ie. the actual launch and particularly post launch narrative could have been done better.
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-nikon-marketing-fail.html

Chosun :gh:

It think that the "Mirrorless reinvented" slogan was pretty spot on with the Nikon 1 system in mind.

Canon joining the mirrorless FF game.

https://www.canonrumors.com/here-ar...-the-canon-eos-r-and-the-new-rf-mount-lenses/

And Panasonic later this month.

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/th...nch-a-new-full-frame-mirrorless-at-photokina/

 

[Chosun Juan]

It think that the "Mirrorless reinvented" slogan was pretty spot on with the Nikon 1 system in mind.

Canon joining the mirrorless FF game.

https://www.canonrumors.com/here-ar...-the-canon-eos-r-and-the-new-rf-mount-lenses/

And Panasonic later this month.

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/th...nch-a-new-full-frame-mirrorless-at-photokina/

But Fujifilm struggles on with the APS-C X-T3:

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/fuji-x-t3-images-leaked/

Yep, the "Mirrorless reinvented" was a good move (an even better one would have been to continue with and improve the 1 series in addition , I just think that there could have been a better playbook (and maybe some more refinement on the AF prior to launch) which would've given better press and commentary around the AF. It doesn't really inspire confidence when you are relying on firmware updates before the first delivery. Perhaps they will save cross type AF sensors for the Z9 ?

Very interesting timing with the Canon announcement - they've kept their cards pretty close to their chests. It will be down to the battle of the mounts now - it seems the slightly larger and closer (FFD) of the Z mount will have the greater performance headroom ..... even faster :eek!: lenses than the 58mm f0.95 Noct have been flagged in this very informative interview with senior engineering staff here: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q

The new MkIII versions of Canon's big white are imminently due for announcement too. With so many tantalizing new options becoming available, ultimately it is going to be whoever offers the best ~2.5kg 600 f4 (probably diffractive) lens in a native future proof mount that will win my $ invested in their system ...... :cat:

A bit strange about the Panasonic FF mail, though with the full size their MFT bodies have been getting to lately I can understand it. I'd really rather see the MFT group get together though and come up with curved sensor MFT computational photography systems with decent diffractive optics supertelephotos - 1000mm f4 and turn the industry on its head ..... it's either now, or not for ~10 years .......



Chosun :gh:

 

[Chosun Juan]

The new Canon release throws another cat among the pigeons. In typical Canon fashion, it seems to do some things quite well, while others poorly, or not at all (such as spot AF linked exposure apparently).

Canon are claiming low light AF sensitivity down to EV -6 with the f1.2 lens. Compare this to the Nikon details released in the above post's link.
"We asked Nikon about low light AF limits, and received this reply: "AF is possible down to -4.3 EV with an f/1.8 lens, -4 EV with an f/2.0 lens and -2 EV with an f/4 lens." Also, there is no reduction in low light AF performance with F-mount lenses, apart from any due to maximum available aperture.)"
It may yet offer a lower EV value with the f0.95 Noct when it arrives, or indeed the even faster aperture lenses that have been flagged. :cat:



Chosun :gh: