Northeast Thailand . . . Raptors similar to the English Common Buzzard. (1 Viewer)

[Ossy]

As well as the Black-winged Kite that was I/Dd yesterday, I also frequently spot another buzzard-like species, flying above the rice paddies outside my home. Sometimes, usually mid-to-late mornings, they fly in pairs or more, calmly circling on the thermals, whilst every evening, just before sunset, a single bird circles, then hovers, wings beating (Kestrel-like), seemingly hunting its dinner, before diving down to catch it!
My Google search is telling me that these raptors are Oriental Honey Buzzards, confirming their size, shape and behaviour, but I'll be more than happy with any further help towards I/D-ing these intriguing visitors to 'my big garden'!

 

[Butty]

a single bird circles, then hovers, wings beating (Kestrel-like), seemingly hunting its dinner, before diving down to catch it!
My Google search is telling me that these raptors are Oriental Honey Buzzards

I fear that using Google to identify birds - without a lot of prior background knowledge - may lead to all manner of highly-erroneous outcomes. I can't imagine what you've found that would lead to your conclusion above, but Oriental honey buzzards don't hover, and the most-likely suggestions from your description are common kestrel and (again) black-winged kite, both of which do commonly hover. I'm afraid the ID is unlikely to go further without a photo.

 

[Ossy]

I fear that using Google to identify birds - without a lot of prior background knowledge - may lead to all manner of highly-erroneous outcomes. I can't imagine what you've found that would lead to your conclusion above, but Oriental honey buzzards don't hover, and the most-likely suggestions from your description are common kestrel and (again) black-winged kite, both of which do commonly hover. I'm afraid the ID is unlikely to go further without a photo.

Thanks Butty. The birds in question are buzzard-sized; much larger than your suggested kestrel and very similar, wing markings and tail shape-wise to this Google pic . . .

Redirect Notice

 

[Butty]

No problem.
Note that...

• Judging the size of a lone bird is notoriously unreliable.
• In your other recent thread, your bird was said also to be...

like an English buzzard in size

...yet turned out to be (you thought eventually) a black-winged kite (which is roughly kestrel-size).

 

[johnallcock]

Another possibility is Eastern Buzzard (Buteo japonicus) - they are very similar to European Buzzards (used to be treated as the same species) so would be larger than kestrels or Black-winged Kites. And they do hover sometimes. I don't think Honey-buzzards ever hover.

ML76895821 - Eastern Buzzard - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML76895821; © Kai Pflug; Shanghai, China

macaulaylibrary.org

ML531035031 - Eastern Buzzard - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML531035031; © John Clough; Hong Kong, Hong Kong

macaulaylibrary.org

 

[Ossy]

No problem.
Note that...

• Judging the size of a lone bird is notoriously unreliable.
• In your other recent thread, your bird was said also to be...

...yet turned out to be (you thought eventually) a black-winged kite (which is roughly kestrel-size).

My original thread was regarding a totally different spotting with its distinctive black and white wings and which Delia kindly suggested was a black-winged kite.
My subsequent post was about the mostly brown raptors, which do fly closely enough to be distinguished from the much smaller kestrel and is all but identical to the photo as linked.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Ossy]

Another possibility is Eastern Buzzard (Buteo japonicus) - they are very similar to European Buzzards (used to be treated as the same species) so would be larger than kestrels or Black-winged Kites. And they do hover sometimes. I don't think Honey-buzzards ever hover.

ML76895821 - Eastern Buzzard - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML76895821; © Kai Pflug; Shanghai, China

macaulaylibrary.org

ML531035031 - Eastern Buzzard - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML531035031; © John Clough; Hong Kong, Hong Kong

macaulaylibrary.org

Thanks John, especially for those excellent photos, which I'm pretty confident have correctly I/Dd my viewings . . . Eastern Buzzards, eh?

 

[johnallcock]

Actually, thinking further, it may also be worth considering harriers. They can often be found in rice paddies and similar wetlands, and will also hover before dropping to the ground like you describe. Similar in size to buzzards but with slimmer bodies and wings.
There are some well-known roosts of Pied and Eastern Marsh Harriers in northern Thailand, but the two species can be tricky to separate (especially in female/juvenile plumages).

ML118146231 - Eastern Marsh Harrier - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML118146231; © Natthaphat Chotjuckdikul; Prachuap Khiri Khan, Thailand

macaulaylibrary.org

ML198083471 - Pied Harrier - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML198083471; © Natthaphat Chotjuckdikul; Ratchaburi, Thailand

macaulaylibrary.org

(Sorry to confuse things by adding more species to consider when it seemed like you had it sorted! )

 

[Andy Adcock]

Too far inland to consider immature Brahminy Kite?

 

[Ossy]

Actually, thinking further, it may also be worth considering harriers. They can often be found in rice paddies and similar wetlands, and will also hover before dropping to the ground like you describe. Similar in size to buzzards but with slimmer bodies and wings.
There are some well-known roosts of Pied and Eastern Marsh Harriers in northern Thailand, but the two species can be tricky to separate (especially in female/juvenile plumages).

ML118146231 - Eastern Marsh Harrier - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML118146231; © Natthaphat Chotjuckdikul; Prachuap Khiri Khan, Thailand

macaulaylibrary.org

ML198083471 - Pied Harrier - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML198083471; © Natthaphat Chotjuckdikul; Ratchaburi, Thailand

macaulaylibrary.org

(Sorry to confuse things by adding more species to consider when it seemed like you had it sorted! )

Great work, John, since with these 2 Harrier species you may well have I/Dd both my frequent raptor sightings. Whilst your Eastern Marsh Harrier link opens to a photo that is a very close match to my evening (and occasional morning) visitor, your Pied Harrier link opens to a mainly brown-coloured bird, which, in turn, opens to this photo . . .



With the clear-cut division between fore-wings and wing tips, that is a very good match for the subject of my initial post, in which Delia suggested the Black-winged Kite as my visitor.
Thanks a million for giving me all these options to now reflect upon, assuming further visits, of course!

 

[Ossy]

Too far inland to consider immature Brahminy Kite?

Hi Andy,
Not sure, location-wise, re your BK suggestion. One thing that does exclude it from my search is the less clear-cut division between black and white portions of the wings.
Thanks.

 

[johnallcock]

Great work, John, since with these 2 Harrier species you may well have I/Dd both my frequent raptor sightings. Whilst your Eastern Marsh Harrier link opens to a photo that is a very close match to my evening (and occasional morning) visitor, your Pied Harrier link opens to a mainly brown-coloured bird, which, in turn, opens to this photo . . .


With the clear-cut division between fore-wings and wing tips, that is a very good match for the subject of my initial post, in which Delia suggested the Black-winged Kite as my visitor.
Thanks a million for giving me all these options to now reflect upon, assuming further visits, of course!

I did think about this, and initially wrote a comment to say this in my post. But I edited it out because I noticed that you attached a photo to your original post in the other thread, which clearly shows a Black-winged Kite.
Is that a photo of the bird you saw, or did you provide the photo from elsewhere for comparison?

 

[Ossy]

I did think about this, and initially wrote a comment to say this in my post. But I edited it out because I noticed that you attached a photo to your original post in the other thread, which clearly shows a Black-winged Kite.
Is that a photo of the bird you saw, or did you provide the photo from elsewhere for comparison?

Hi John,

Other than this link, provided by Delia Todd, as under . . .

Hi David - Ossy.. and a warm welcome to you from all the Staff and Moderators. I've moved your post to our ID forum, as they're better placed to be able to help you. It looks like a Black-winged Kite but wait for the experts to chime in.

I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.

. . . the other link that I submitted was this one . . .

https://cdn.download.ams.birds.cornell.edu/api/v1/asset/133930121/1200

. . . of the Crested Honey Buzzard, that I was using to inform member Butty regarding the size and shape of my supposed buzzard.

I hope that clarifies the various links that have occurred in this thread.

 

[Ossy]

Hi John,

Other than this link, provided by Delia Todd, as under . . .

Hi David - Ossy.. and a warm welcome to you from all the Staff and Moderators. I've moved your post to our ID forum, as they're better placed to be able to help you. It looks like a Black-winged Kite but wait for the experts to chime in.

I'm sure you will enjoy it here and I look forward to hearing your news.

. . . the other link that I submitted was this one . . .

https://cdn.download.ams.birds.cornell.edu/api/v1/asset/133930121/1200

. . . of the Crested Honey Buzzard, that I was using to inform member Butty regarding the size and shape of my supposed buzzard.

I hope that clarifies the various links that have occurred in this thread.

Sorry John, there was this link, also, that I initially submitted to the forum . . .

https://www.birdforum.net/attachments/dsc03135-copy-jpg.1548852/

. . . one that my first Google search (for Thai buzzards) offered, initiating (with its URL address) my forum registration to which Delia responded to.

 

[johnallcock]

Sorry John, there was this link, also, that I initially submitted to the forum . . .

https://www.birdforum.net/attachments/dsc03135-copy-jpg.1548852/

. . . one that my first Google search (for Thai buzzards) offered, initiating (with its URL address) my forum registration to which Delia responded to.

Aah, OK. This was the source of my confusion. I thought this was a picture you had taken of the bird. If not, then adult male Pied Harrier would definitely fit the description you gave.

If you have Pied Harriers around, you're very lucky! Here in Hong Kong, this is one of the species that photographers get very excited about. And most are juveniles - we very rarely see adult males (I think I've only seen one in 20+ years here!)

 

[Ossy]

Aah, OK. This was the source of my confusion. I thought this was a picture you had taken of the bird. If not, then adult male Pied Harrier would definitely fit the description you gave.

If you have Pied Harriers around, you're very lucky! Here in Hong Kong, this is one of the species that photographers get very excited about. And most are juveniles - we very rarely see adult males (I think I've only seen one in 20+ years here!)

Happy to have cleared the confusion, John and happier still to know that my PH visitor is such a rarity. Less happy, though, that it is such an infrequent visitor, with sightings, at a guess, barely a dozen a year; contrasting from its hunting behaviour (circling, then diving) that make it appear to be on its every-day home turf . . . if only. Next time it appears, I'll try to get a photo, which I'll proudly send to you!

 

[Patudo]

South East Asian raptors can be confusing if you come from the much less raptor-diverse UK. There are a lot more medium to medium-large broad-winged jobs, and that's even before you get into the tricky little accipiters! Familiarity with UK raptors, however, does give you a reasonable base to work from in terms of size (yes, size), shape etc. If you're not already familiar with raptors in your area, I'd definitely recommend getting a good, reasonably up to date field guide covering birds of Thailand - much better than relying solely on Google.

A couple of quick thoughts:

- Black-winged kite vs pied harrier - though appearing somewhat larger when I've seen it in the field, the impression the black-winged kite gives you is much more reminiscent of a kestrel (narrowish falcon-like wings, similar hovering pattern) than a buzzard. To tell this species apart from the male pied harrier (the only other potential candidate) you'd look for the harrier's black head, black mark on the back as well as larger size, broader wings and different style of flight. This video from Singapore shows a male pied harrier in flight very well (link).

This part of your description fits male pied harrier well I'd say.

its most prominent feature are its 50:50 black and white wings, both upper and lower, with the black half outermost and with 'square-cut' dividing line between B&W, as opposed to the tapered black portion of [black-winged kite]

- The birds you see soaring in the morning could be any of a large number of largish broad-winged raptors, resident or migratory (a good number of migratory raptors should be heading north now). To ID those you'll need to look closely for identifying features - shape/proportions, size (yes), any visible field marks, manner of flight, etc. Good luck and I wish you lots of interesting observations!

 

[Ossy]

South East Asian raptors can be confusing if you come from the much less raptor-diverse UK. There are a lot more medium to medium-large broad-winged jobs, and that's even before you get into the tricky little accipiters! Familiarity with UK raptors, however, does give you a reasonable base to work from in terms of size (yes, size), shape etc. If you're not already familiar with raptors in your area, I'd definitely recommend getting a good, reasonably up to date field guide covering birds of Thailand - much better than relying solely on Google.

A couple of quick thoughts:

- Black-winged kite vs pied harrier - though appearing somewhat larger when I've seen it in the field, the impression the black-winged kite gives you is much more reminiscent of a kestrel (narrowish falcon-like wings, similar hovering pattern) than a buzzard. To tell this species apart from the male pied harrier (the only other potential candidate) you'd look for the harrier's black head, black mark on the back as well as larger size, broader wings and different style of flight. This video from Singapore shows a male pied harrier in flight very well (link).

This part of your description fits male pied harrier well I'd say.


- The birds you see soaring in the morning could be any of a large number of largish broad-winged raptors, resident or migratory (a good number of migratory raptors should be heading north now). To ID those you'll need to look closely for identifying features - shape/proportions, size (yes), any visible field marks, manner of flight, etc. Good luck and I wish you lots of interesting observations!

Many thanks, Patudo and especially for the Pied Harrier link. Showing that clear-cut division between the white and black portions of its wings makes me sure that that is my occasional (sadly, very occasional, as in about a dozen sightings a year!) morning visitor.
As you suggest, I'll carry out more research into the possible I/D of the buzzard-like visitor that I see daily and which Member johnallcock has suggested a likely I/D of Eastern Buzzard, as here . . .

ML76895821 - Eastern Buzzard - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML76895821; © Kai Pflug; Shanghai, China

macaulaylibrary.org

Thanks again for your help.