October moths 2009 (1 Viewer)

[davidg]

I realise that, but any certainty behind an identification is not important, unless I was submitting the record to, say, my CR. I'm only going on what I can see, and thats a specimen that has the exact colouration of the first illustration in waring and townsend (others are more green). Thats good enough for me for my own records.

Good mothing

Sean

Hi Sean,

I hate to seem pedantic but it's just wrong to record something to species level if you're not actually certain of the ID, even if it's not being submitted to your CR. If you see a shrike but are not absolutely sure what it is you record it as 'Shrike sp' surely, not as 'Red-backed Shrike' because that's the most likely.

Sorry, but if you don't want to have such individuals dissected you should record them as 'Epirrita ag.'

David

 

[Oleander]

What does 'sp.' and 'ag.' stand for?

 

[Nick Tanner]

sp = species

ag = aggregate, a combination of two or more closely related species that cannot be specifically identified without dissection are lumped as ag, it's a bit like saying "commic" tern for distantly seen Common or Arctic Terns that cannot be reliably specifically identified

Nick

 

[davidg]

What does 'sp.' and 'ag.' stand for?

Sorry, Oleander, I'm lapsing into lingo. 'Sp' is short for species and 'Ag' for aggregate. Interchangeable in terms of meaning, I think, but 'sp' is used in birding when views of a bird don't permit definite identification. 'Ag' is used by moth-ers to record those moths that can't be reliably identified down to individual species, so 'Epirrita ag.', 'Common Rustic ag.' etc

David

 

[Oleander]

Thanks for explaining it to me!

 

[Surreybirder]

I had a good catch last night - 22 species, 82 moths (33 Large Yellow Underwings).

Oak Rustic was new for my garden.

Double-striped pug (Ken might be interested).

Nerine

Point proved! I'd be even more interested to get an oak rustic
Ken

 

[Nerine]

Another good catch last night with some nice surprises.

Vestal (new for the garden) It's pink!|:$|
Green Brindled Crescent (new for garden)

Nerine

 

[Tri-Counties Birder]

Hi Sean,

I hate to seem pedantic but it's just wrong to record something to species level if you're not actually certain of the ID, even if it's not being submitted to your CR. If you see a shrike but are not absolutely sure what it is you record it as 'Shrike sp' surely, not as 'Red-backed Shrike' because that's the most likely.

Sorry, but if you don't want to have such individuals dissected you should record them as 'Epirrita ag.'

David

I have had this discussion before.

My records, my lists, MY RULES!

Sorry to be abrupt but thats just how I feel. If I were to submit this record as a November Moth I would expect a rejection, I understand that. I also understand that I cannot be certain of the identity without a disection (which I have no need nor want). If I were to post a photo of a Barred Sallow, calling it an Angle-barred Sallow that I subsequently put in my list/records, you would be right to question it, and if I continued to keep it in my list/records then I would be ignorant and stuborn to do so. The fact that I have put November Moth in my list/records should be irrelevant to you because, 1. no one well ever know its identity for sure anyway, 2. I am fairly certain most people would agree that this specimen is 'most likely' to be a Nov Moth, and 3. in my original post this is why I put 'presumably', I was not ever trying to say that I was sure of the ID!

Most people who know me would say that I am a fairly level-headed, tolerant person, who rarely lets things get to them (I hope!), but I feel I must defend myself on this issue.

Rant over!:smoke:

 

[MikeWall]

Sean,

Indeed, your list, your rules, and we shouldn't (and I don't) care a monkey's about what you keep on it, BUT why not put November Moth agg. on your list? It doesn't deny you the "tick", just gives the "tick" more accuracy (accurate meaning less definite)! You say that to keep a misid'd sallow on your list "would be ignorant and stubborn" then I fear that I must place this in the same kind of category (my view, my ethics ).

And who knows where your records may end up? Perhaps your widow will give your notebooks away on your death and the county moth atlases of the 2100s will be inaccurate because of one carelessly misid'd Epirrita (tongue very firmly embedded in cheek here btw )

M

 

[davidg]

I have had this discussion before.

My records, my lists, MY RULES!

Sorry to be abrupt but thats just how I feel. If I were to submit this record as a November Moth I would expect a rejection, I understand that. I also understand that I cannot be certain of the identity without a disection (which I have no need nor want). If I were to post a photo of a Barred Sallow, calling it an Angle-barred Sallow that I subsequently put in my list/records, you would be right to question it, and if I continued to keep it in my list/records then I would be ignorant and stuborn to do so. The fact that I have put November Moth in my list/records should be irrelevant to you because, 1. no one well ever know its identity for sure anyway, 2. I am fairly certain most people would agree that this specimen is 'most likely' to be a Nov Moth, and 3. in my original post this is why I put 'presumably', I was not ever trying to say that I was sure of the ID!

Most people who know me would say that I am a fairly level-headed, tolerant person, who rarely lets things get to them (I hope!), but I feel I must defend myself on this issue.

Rant over!:smoke:

Hmmm. I'm not going to comment further on what is clearly a sensitive subject but it's a shame you interpret what was intended as friendly and constructive criticism as an attack. It wasn't.

David

 

[Tri-Counties Birder]

Mike,

With the sallow anology, I meant that I would be ignorant and stuborn if I kept a record which was clearly (with the opinion of others) something else. This Epprita is not clearly something else, its just most likely to be a Nov moth. For me this is enough for my records/lists.

Just to make things clear by the way, although I like 'listing' and 'ticking', I enjoy nothing more than enjoying wildlife for what they are, whether they be moths or whatever. Freting about identifying tricky species for ticking purposes is not something I generally want to be a part of, which is why I have this relaxed attitude to 'ticking' a November moth.

Sean

 

[Tri-Counties Birder]

Hmmm. I'm not going to comment further on what is clearly a sensitive subject but it's a shame you interpret what was intended as friendly and constructive criticism as an attack. It wasn't.

David

Fair enough.

If everyones happy then, I will quite gladly sweep all this under the carpet!o

Now, back to October moths.

Sean

 

[Surreybirder]

Another good catch last night with some nice surprises.

Vestal (new for the garden) It's pink!|:$|
Green Brindled Crescent (new for garden)

Nerine

Nice one, Nerine! I haven't had one since that amazing summer (was it 2006?) when I had several in one week - but none of them were as pink nor as fresh as that one. The first I ever saw was in Cyprus. Keep the trap on for the next couple of nights... you are in a strategic spot there.
Good luck.
Ken

 

[Davebutterflyman]

Spruce carpet and Light brown apple moth attracted to the lounge window this evening.

Dave.

 

[Nerine]

Keep the trap on for the next couple of nights... you are in a strategic spot there.
Good luck.
Ken

Thanks Ken. I had a good catch again last night using actinic and MV.

New for the garden:

Scarce Bordered Straw |=)|

I also had two double-striped pugs

I'll trap again tonight and hope the neighbours don't mind the floodlit garden - the leaves are falling so not so many places to hide the trap.

Nerine

 

[green eyes]

Over the past few nights I have had lb apples, CMC's, spruce carpets, bricks, a red line quaker, my first yellow line quaker, though sadly in the clutches of a spider, a couple of shoulder knots and a lesser YU.

 

[Surreybirder]

I had my first December moth for a couple of years last night. Only other things of note were a Nomophyla noctuella and a red-green carpet which was overall dark green with hardly a hint of red. I would have tried to get a photo but it wasn't light enough before I had to leave for work. The DM was taken using diffused flash, so not the best ever.
Ken

 

[Nerine]

It's been a good week with a new garden species almost every night.
Thursday night's catch was slightly less than those earlier in the week.

I caught a November Moth agg. This species, I think, is fairly common for most of you writing on this thread but it is rare where I live so I was quite excited. It's gone for dissection.

Amongst the rest I had a second autumnal Heart & Dart for the year.

Light Brown Apple Moth 1
Rusty Dot Pearl 16
Rush Veneer 6
The Mallow 3
Grey Pine Carpet 1
Double-striped Pug 1
Barred Red 1
Heart & Dart 1
Crescent Dart 1
Shuttle-shaped Dart 2
Large Yellow Underwing 22
White-speck 1
Blair's Shoulder-knot 1
Green-brindled Crescent 1
Flame Brocade 4
Feathered Ranunculus 4
Red-line Quaker 3
Yellow-line Quaker 1
Pale Mottled Willow 1
November Moth agg 1


Nerine

 

[honeym]

To mv last night at the London Wetland Centre, Barnes (Surrey):

Satellite 4
Red-line Quaker 4
Large Wainscot 2
Dark Chestnut 1
Feathered Thorn 1
Mottled Umber 1
Willow Beauty 1
November moth agg. 3
Light Brown Apple moth 2
Phyllonorycter messaniella 1
Blastobasis adustella 2
Blastobasis lacticolella 1

plus 1 Brindled Green in the Cafe and 1 Mompha jurassicella in one of the hides

Martin

 

[Surreybirder]

Last night was quiet here:
Epirrita 5
feathered thorn 2
brick 3
red-green carpet 1
Ken