Octopus farming (2 Viewers)

[Richard D]

I thnk the ethics of eating animals or specific animals (there are obviously differing cultural and religious views) is a separate discussion to the ethics of farming octopus. Should intelligence (as we best judge it) be a consideration in what we farm? Is keeping a non-sociable animal in close confinement with others a serious welfare issue? Is the proposed despatch method, rather than stunning as you would with many other farmed animals a concern?

 

[Original PaulE]

Maybe we should raise the standards and not be so judgemental of others. The arrogant denigration of what other people choose to eat as crap is a bigger concern, not to mention your introduction of poor people, rich people, dolphins, shares, the social justice warrior in you just can't have a conversation without bringing in every other issue you can think of.

You seem very judgemental for someone accusing others of being Judgemental?

It's interesting the parts of my post you choose to reply to!

I think it is fairly obvious by crap, I meant poor quality produce to the detriment of the environment. They don't CHOOSE to eat it, there is no choice you eat what is in the shops/markets that you can afford. It is foisted onto us by companies whose only motivation is to make money! The nutrition in food has been reduced by 50% since the 70s replaced by sugar and fat! And they are happy to exploit any animals they can.

Rich, Poor are labels of opportunity and situation, they are fact not judgements, in the real world at least.

I'm not judging anyone, except the people happy to exploit animals and the poor who have little choice in what they eat. In Britain most people can afford to choose to eat in an environmentally friendly way, organic ,local etc although most choose not to, although obviously some can't afford it.
The conversation was about the farming of Octopi, you chose to extend it by passing judgement on the people commenting, putting your judgement on them, including me.

The poor, including in Britain, are exploited by the wealthy and their Governments. It wouldn't be hard for Governments to bring in regulations and subsidies to produce good, environmentally friendly food for every one, they choose to spend trillions on weapons instead. We would rather cover the south of England in Vineyards that require tonnes of chemicals to produce anything, rather than grow nutritious food for people, that is capitalism for you, the same capitalism that encourages the exploitation of the Seas and their contents.
I was once told, not 100% sure it is true, that Kansas alone could grow enough grain to easily feed the world, the problem isn't production it's the political system that the world is embroiled in. That causes food poverty. and the associated destruction of Nature.

 

[vergan]

You brought a couple of interesting points in these two messages.

Will this put smaller scale fishermen out of business in that area surely the farmed octopuses are going to be cheaper otherwise people wouldn't invest vast amounts of money just to get this off the ground. If it is a similar situation as the U.K and the smaller scale fishermen they are barely getting by as it is. Its O.K saying quality costs but your average person is on a tight budget.

Certainly not. The plan is to deploy the facility in Spanish waters. So yes, Spain eats a lot of octopus. The catches are going down due overfishing, and the demans is increasing. It depend on the source, but some sources (in spanish) reports that up to 75% of octopuss sold cames actually from overseas. I don't think the farm would affect negatively to the local fishermen. It will also alleviate the negative impact in third party countries (Morocco is the largest so far in terms of exportation to Spain, Mauritania also suffers for an intense fishery of octopuses too, but I am not sure it goes to Spain).
The small scale won't be affected, at least it remains me to the scarce and expensive scallops catch in NW Spain. Now the marked is filled with those coming from Peru and Chile, they are much cheaper and affordable. The local ones, however, remains pretty expensive. Well, it is my opinion, of course.

What was the mortality rate before they devised a more successful system that reduced deaths
rates? They seem to have conveniently left that info out. I was very surprised to read that c9% of chickens reared for food die before being ready for slaughter, which obviously isn't massively different to the 15% mortality rate quoted for this project. The problem is every little thing which would improve welfare for these animals costs money which means either higher costs for the consumer or reduced profits and usually the margins are very tight in any factory farming set up. Obviously not defending the investors in this project only saying how these things work

I believe that that they putting in some serious effort into being able to farm Cod, Tuna etc but their temperament is totally unsuited to intensive farming. I don't know how far away they are from being able to do this as it was in a documentary I was watching a while back. God knows what will happen if this takes off.

There is something clear here. We are talking about an experimental facility, so there is a lot of unknowns, selection, refinement, improvements to be discovered as it goes once the process starts (because we know that what we are growing in our backyards, and raising in our barns, is the product of intense selection, a lot of misses, and some hits, to the point that most humans prefer human created varieties than the original, wild cultivars or species). Things needs time to improve, including the own premises operations, and the selection of individuals to breed and maintain the captive stock.

BTW, the cod has been successfully farmed, but as far as I remember it is a matter of money/investments and penetrating the market (in fact, I think I remember farmed cod was used in a royal wedding in Norway?).
Bluefin is either wild, or (more often than people think) ranched in the ocean. Its breeding cycle has been completed in the lab and experimental facilities, but yet, it seems completely unsuitable for farming (but remember the Atlantic salmon, a truly migratory anadromous species)

 

[Trinovid]

You seem very judgemental for someone accusing others of being Judgemental?

It's interesting the parts of my post you choose to reply to!

The nutrition in food has been reduced by 50% since the 70s replaced by sugar and fat!

The thread started out judging others, you came in judging others and continue to do so. Stop doing it if you can't take having it pointed back at you.

Yes, I chose to go to the heart of it rather than let you choose to drag the conversation further down.

The nutrition in the octopus has been reduced by 50% and replaced by sugar and fat, right. The thread is about octopus you know.

 

[01101001]

Goodness gracious! How this thread still goes on is a mystery to me.

 

[Trinovid]

There is something clear here. We are talking about an experimental facility, so there is a lot of unknowns, selection, refinement, improvements to be discovered as it goes once the process starts (because we know that what we are growing in our backyards, and raising in our barns, is the product of intense selection, a lot of misses, and some hits, to the point that most humans prefer human created varieties than the original, wild cultivars or species). Things needs time to improve, including the own premises operations, and the selection of individuals to breed and maintain the captive stock.

Lots of information in your whole post, not just the part that I quoted and it made me wonder if this is related to your work or just something you've been interested in already? I've only looked into fish farming as an onlooker out of sheer curiosity a couple of times and one thing that seemed clear from the little I've understood so far is that not all methods are going to bring equally satisfactory results. I like many of the fish mentioned, with both cod and octopus among that list, and hope they continue to make some decent progress.

 

[Original PaulE]

The thread started out judging others, you came in judging others and continue to do so. Stop doing it if you can't take having it pointed back at you.

Yes, I chose to go to the heart of it rather than let you choose to drag the conversation further down.

The nutrition in the octopus has been reduced by 50% and replaced by sugar and fat, right. The thread is about octopus you know.

Ah so you choose to treat Octopus in isolation rather than a continuation of the policies of cheap, environmentally damaging, low nutrition,high profit food to feed the masses? Though I imagine the quality and nutriional value of octopus meat will
be lowered by this process in the same way industrially produced beef has much lower nutritional content than Organic grass raised beef.
The only people I have judged are the people doing the exploitation. You have chosen to judge me a on totally bogus premise which seems driven by your own prejudices.

 

[Original PaulE]

The nutrition in the octopus has been reduced by 50% and replaced by sugar and fat, right. The thread is about octopus you know

Interestingly the Sugar content of Brussel Sprouts has been increased by a high % since the 1970s through selective breeding, no reason to believe with genetic manipulation the same couldn't be done with octopus and no doubt being in cramped tanks and unable to indulge in natural behaviour/exercise I imagine it will be inevitable that the fat content of the meat will rise considerably.
So yes we are talking about octopus.

 

[Trinovid]

Ah so you choose to treat Octopus in isolation...
The only people I have judged are the people doing the exploitation. You have chosen to judge me a on totally bogus premise which seems driven by your own prejudices.

Yes, I chose to try and stay on the subject of the thread, as opposed to bringing in a slew of social justice driven topics as you have.

Total hypocrisy in your accusation when you essentially say that you've only condemned those who deserve it while not admitting that I've only thrown it at those who have come to the forum with little but judgemental prejudices. You and I disagree and will apparently never see eye to eye, and therefore should accept this fact and let the thread go without any more back and forth.

 

[Original PaulE]

Yes, I chose to try and stay on the subject of the thread, as opposed to bringing in a slew of social justice driven topics as you have.

Total hypocrisy in your accusation when you essentially say that you've only condemned those who deserve it while not admitting that I've only thrown it at those who have come to the hypocrisy with little but judgemental prejudices. You and I disagree and will apparently never see eye to eye, and therefore should accept this fact and let the thread go without any more back and forth.

No hypocrisy, the judgemental prejudices you are claiming are total false and a product of whatever chip you have on your shoulder!! None of what you claim is judgemental both by myself or the original poster, is in anyway judgemental except in your imagination!! And the examples you have given are not judgements but facts. Again the only people I have judged are those that exploit animals and people and I stand by that!
But yes time to let it go!

 

[vergan]

Lots of information in your whole post, not just the part that I quoted and it made me wonder if this is related to your work or just something you've been interested in already? I've only looked into fish farming as an onlooker out of sheer curiosity a couple of times and one thing that seemed clear from the little I've understood so far is that not all methods are going to bring equally satisfactory results. I like many of the fish mentioned, with both cod and octopus among that list, and hope they continue to make some decent progress.

I am personal interest in seafood (love it), its impacts, how to avoid them and so on, but yes, I've spent years in an institution where I would sit just next to a guy who was designing pellets for fish farming, feeding the fish with them, and killing them to analyze their fat profiles, do some proteomics, health checks and so on. I worked with air breathing marine organisms, so my only involvement with the aquaculture research was eating the spare ones (good old times, now you cannot, at least there).
There is no way such a project will be started out of perfection. My reaction to such project would be by focusing on the expected evolution of the project. For example, imagine that the proposal states a mortality of 40%; well, that's shitty (but remember that some years ago the mortality was 100%, and don't remember the campaigns against experimental reproduction of octopus), I would say it is ok under the compromise of reducing it let's say by 3-4% per 1-2 generations until they reach the current standards of mortality in the industry (that's one example, there would be others). That's a measurement objective that shows the compromise of the industry towards better practices and blablabla.

 

[Trinovid]

…the judgemental prejudices you are claiming are total false…

Doubling down by claiming you’re not doing what you’re actually doing. Not convincing at all.
Oh, gotta go, I just noticed the post after yours is actually related to the thread!

 

[Andy Lakin]

How can they not decide on whether putting them in very cold water before killing cause unnecessary suffering? they must have done plenty of studies into this, I know obviously that an octopuses nervous system is vastly different from ours but the technology today is so advanced. After all we are advised to do this with crabs, lobsters etc as a more humane way of killing them/ preparing them for killing.