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Message: <blockquote data-quote="macrourus" data-source="post: 1138193" data-attributes="member: 43747">Talking in general, ringers are too strict in considering measurements or thinking that a acros or phyllos could be just identified on wing formula or hind claws and that they are the only one able to age a bird ... and that anything outisde Svensson is not identifiable. Always had this problem in Italy (as for. ex. they have no idea how to ID. an Eastern Bonelli's Warbler and about the call, therefore I had to fight to let my obs. in Sicily accepted) I've seen Song Thrush as small as a Swainson's and a Bar-tailed Godwit preserved at Catania University Museum (here in Sicily) as big as a Marbled Godwit ....We should be able always to combine measurements with filed apparance and birds characters....As opposite, most birders are still convinced that pale tips to greater coverts, in for ex. turdidae, are just surely a 1st y bird feature (I've handled a Robin with such tips being ringed 4 yeasr earlier, and many other examples)... or that a marsh harrier with pale shoulders are adult females...So, always advisable to combine both practise and knowledges....Anyhow, your pipit its indeed a Tree Pipit without any doubt,as for the shrikes, I'll check and see what could be figured out...thanksAndrea</blockquote>