Overall Best Binoculars (1 Viewer)

[Kevin Conville]

Lastly, what if we all eventualy find out that the Zens do hold a candle to some alphas, but we find this out AFTER they are either no longer available or at a much higher price?

How would anyone bashing them feel about how their contribution or lack thereof affected this community?

If I may, this is misrepresentative of what the complaint is. Just who is bashing ZENs? I think the issue here is the religious promotion of them, the hyperbole, and how the oxygen is being sucked out of many threads on this forum with it.

"How would anyone bashing them feel about how their contribution or lack thereof affected this community?"
How about when the Lucky Lotus 8x42s come out next month and Zens become passe? What about your part?

Let's see... first Vortex, then Pro Master, then Hawke, now Zen. I'm counting on Lucky Lotus to "blow them all away".

Then maybe... I could be wrong

 

[Kevin Purcell]

At this point, for me, the merits of Zen Rays are irrelevant. I want nothing to do with them.

I'm thinking there must be an Aesop parable that fits...

Hmmm ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wolf_in_Sheep's_Clothing

Nope, there is a wolf there even if it is in sheep clothing.

Perhaps for the proponents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_North_Wind_and_the_Sun

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cat_and_the_Mice

maybe even

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cock_and_the_Jewel

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honest_Woodcutter

or even

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Crow_(Aesop)

Perhaps.

Err, for the detractors perhaps "sour grapes"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dog_in_the_Manger

or even

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_that_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs

For binocuholics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dog_and_the_Bone

For the rest of us maybe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Town_Mouse_and_the_Country_Mouse

There are so many to choose from. Pick your moral

 

[Kevin Conville]

Very good KP! You got busy! I knew fruit could be harvested there.

 

[Tero]

Wanting the other dog's bone as well as his own, the dog opened his mouth to bark at the "other" dog it saw, but in doing so, the dog dropped his own bone into the river, where it was gone for good.

I think the dog forgot the neck strap from the bone. Always attach your bone to yourself before leaving the house.

 

[falcondude]

Like another person said, the title of "best binoculars" is fundamentally flawed by itself - OP, no criticism meant here. It will simply flare up the debate among strong opinionated people with no winning side in sight. At least it proved one thing to be true that we are all different. Instead of focusing our difference, why don't we reflect on why we are here on this forum in the first place. Let's just leave this meaningless topic here and grab your favorite binoculars and do some birding.

 

[rjwims]

Hey Kevin

So no one has said anything bad about the ZENS, whithout actually looking through them?

btw: As far as my part goes, IIRC, I have only said that I bought a pair and in another post, I provided some specs related to the focus wheel.

So, have I misled anyone?

The Lucky Lotus sounds like it may have possibilities as well...at least for some...:t:

I wanted some low-mid priced bins and so I bought some, period...and on the recommendation of Frank, Steve, Dennis and others who semed to think that they weren't too shabby for the price.

As long as they don't spontaneously combust in the near future, I hope not to regret the purchase.

Richard

 

[Veracocha]

I wanted some low-mid priced bins and so I bought some, period...and on the recommendation of Frank, Steve, Dennis and others who semed to think that they weren't too shabby for the price.

Richard

An in this respect I thank each and every one of them for having the vision to make such recommendations. I took their advice, and will do so again.

 

[rjwims]

I think the dog forgot the neck strap from the bone. Always attach your bone to yourself before leaving the house.

If it was a Zen neckstrap. no great loss...:-O

And might I add that if you have a bone to pick, take it to PM's :smoke:

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Lucznik

While I see where you are coming from, I doubt that anyone can change Dennis's mind TODAY.

Arguments on both sides have gotten somewhat old. (and I say this with massive amounts of sarcasm.) B

As Henry has stated, the most relevant technical information seems to have come from Ron (Surveyor), but I still find his assessment somewhat inconclusive, for a few reasons, including the fact that he did not have a late production model of a Zen Ray.

Perhaps one of the experts would be so kind as to do a thorough technical review of the Zens and at least end the debate from an optics perspective.

After all, with a 30 day money back trial period, a $10 out of pocket fee to try the Zens doesn't seem all that steep a price to find out the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The alpha pundits could then throw out a lot of facts related to areas where the Zens fall short (if they do optically) and by how much.

Not that any of this would change Dennis's opinion at the moment, but it could help others make a decision based on technical facts.

Lastly, what if we all eventualy find out that the Zens do hold a candle to some alphas, but we find this out AFTER they are either no longer available or at a much higher price?

How would anyone bashing them feel about how their contribution or lack thereof affected this community?

Note: I do have a horse in this race, in that I bought the same Zens that Dennis owns, and I would be willing to send them to any respected tester on this forum, if that would help end the debate.

JMO

Richard

What I meant was I disagree with this fellow saying in an indirect way you shouldn't buy less expensive binoculars like his older unsealed porro-prisms because they will fog up and you will have quality issues. In my mind he is using this logic to say you are better off in the long run buying alpha binoculars instead of less expensive binoculars like Zen Ray's. Is this right or did I misconstrue his story. That is what I meant when I said his story is irrelevant to Zen Rays.
I have had quite a few different binoculars because I like to try new ones and compare them to each other. As my viewing experience and tastes have changed so have my binoculars. I feel I am better judge now of what is a good binocular and what is a great binocular. As I had each pair at that point in time they were the best I had seen but there are alot of binoculars and technology keeps improving. I keep trying new ones looking for a better view. I enjoy it.

Dennis

 

[stereotruckdriver]

Isn't that what it is all about (Better View)??? I personally don't care what brand it is!!! I for one am partial to Pentax, 6pr? But, I have lot's of other's and enjoy using them also... Technology is changing, optics are getting more expensive. This has always been the case, if you wanted just a touch better view you had to pay for it! And so it goes but, I think manufactures have caught on and realized that there is alot of money spent on optics (Birding, Hunting etc..) and they are finding ways to get a piece of the pie? I think the one place you get what you pay for is in Spotting Scopes, you pay big money for great views thats it!!! No short-cuts, we all know to well that you can fork-out 400+ on a cheap scope, and well it's a cheap scope, virtually useless at 40-60x!!! It's cool to see all these new players in the optics industry, better for us as consumers! Who would go out and spend $1800 on some no name that hasn't proven itself over time??? If you can go out and get a Binocular for $400 and it is comparable to what you spent $1200 five yr's ago great! The Big Company's know they have to keep improving to be competitive but, at a cost to the consumer, technology isn't cheap! So why fret? Just go out Birding, Hunting, Nature Viewing, etc... Life through optics is amazing it opens up a whole new World... Bryce (stereotruckdriver)

 

[lucznik]

What I meant was I disagree with this fellow saying in an indirect way you shouldn't buy less expensive binoculars like his older unsealed porro-prisms because they will fog up and you will have quality issues. In my mind he is using this logic to say you are better off in the long run buying alpha binoculars instead of less expensive binoculars like Zen Ray's. Is this right or did I misconstrue his story. That is what I meant when I said his story is irrelevant to Zen Rays.

Actually I don't have a problem with your now-current argument that it is not necessary to buy Alpha glass to get quality. This is, in point of fact, the very argument that I (and others) have been making since we both registered back in July of 2005.

The problem I have is that this same argument in favor of buying Alpha glass no matter the cost or sacrifice and to the exclusion of ALL other makes and models has also been your contention for most of that same time period. You can't simply dismiss as "irrelevant" the very argument that you have been using since you registered. That's the very definition of hypocrisy.

If you've changed your mind, then great. But, you owe it to all the people whom you have led astray in the past to explain that reality, that transformation of opinion, when you choose to now argue against the very principles that have served as the hallmark of your presense here.

 

[John Dracon]

Folks - I have been reading this thread for some time and think perhaps it is time to inject some levity. My vote for best binocular is the one you happen to have with you when you really want to look at something. Also, Mark Twain remarked, "It is the difference of opinion that makes a horse race." If circumstances were to dictate that I could only use one of two choices available, I would be torn between the Nikon 8x32 SE and the Zeiss 8x32 FL. I will die happy with either model and stop looking for the Holy Grail. Besides, my eyes ain't what they once were. (pardon the grammatical travesty) John

 

[Steve C]

John,

I agree. :t:

What with all of the assertions of drinking too much kool aid, evangalism, blatant promotion, and now hypocricy, it seems like some life has been removed from the forum lately. I for one, chose not to respond to a new members question a couple of days ago for fear this would kick up again.

For my part, I wish I had kept my hands in my pocket and off of the keyboard clear back at post #54.

Let this thing die a natural death. B

 

[[email protected]]

John,

I agree. :t:

What with all of the assertions of drinking too much kool aid, evangalism, blatant promotion, and now hypocricy, it seems like some life has been removed from the forum lately. I for one, chose not to respond to a new members question a couple of days ago for fear this would kick up again.

For my part, I wish I had kept my hands in my pocket and off of the keyboard clear back at post #54.

Let this thing die a natural death. B

Quite the contrary. This thread has added life to the forum. Although some people got a little emotional there has been ALOT of good information in this thread. By the number of reads and the number of replies alot of people were interested in what various people were saying and arguing about. I for one thoroughly enjoyed it. Although the technical threads have their place and provide excellent information on bird forum I find the subjective opinions about different binoculars very interesting. In a way I find it more valuable when a member says this or that binocular is sharper to their eyes than quoting the resolution in arc seconds from a resolution chart. The various reasons members have for preferring one binocular over another is very valuable coming from an eclectic group such as this. The information on lens covers, cases, straps and accessories is great. The various opinons are what make this forum interesting and sometimes they are going to be different and arguments will no doubt happen. That's the way it is. It's good.

Dennis

 

[John M Robinson]

Quite the contrary. This thread has added life to the forum. Although some people got a little emotional there has been ALOT of good information in this thread. By the number of reads and the number of replies alot of people were interested in what various people were saying and arguing about. I for one thoroughly enjoyed it. Although the technical threads have their place and provide excellent information on bird forum I find the subjective opinions about different binoculars very interesting. In a way I find it more valuable when a member says this or that binocular is sharper to their eyes than quoting the resolution in arc seconds from a resolution chart. The various reasons members have for preferring one binocular over another is very valuable coming from an eclectic group such as this. The information on lens covers, cases, straps and accessories is great. The various opinons are what make this forum interesting and sometimes they are going to be different and arguments will no doubt happen. That's the way it is. It's good.

Dennis

I love reading the highly technical threads and learning more about optics than I ever would otherwise, but I have to admit I am less interested in how a manufacturer accomplishes a design from a technical standpoint, than how the bin actually looks to me.

For years, actually from the mid 70s to early 90s, I was WAY into high end stereo equipment. I read all of the magazines and listened to much better equipment than I could afford. There used to be a popular magazine, started in the 50s or 60s, that reviewed stereo and hi-fi equipmenet. A major portion of their report was based on laboratory testing of distortion, power output, frequency response, ect, all measured to the ten-thousands of a percent. This coming from an earlier era when anything below 1% distortion was considered good. I had wonderful transistor amps that had .016% distortion, but after a while that old McIntosh tube quipment sounded better to me, even though it had 50 times the measured distortion. At that point I started believeing my ears over what the testing equipment measured. It wasn't that the test lied, it was just the testing perameters weren't relevant, for my ears at least.

When I joined this forum I put a lot of stock in the ALUA test and many other objective test, but I discovered that most of those optical properties exceeded the limit of my 20-10 vision, and that there were many ergonomic issues that outweighed the minute differences in optical quality for my eyes. But it still is fun to test, and argue the superiority of my binocular over yours...

John

 

[Kevin Conville]

It's all for naught, as Lucky Lotus' are right around the corner :t:

 

[[email protected]]

I love reading the highly technical threads and learning more about optics than I ever would otherwise, but I have to admit I am less interested in how a manufacturer accomplishes a design from a technical standpoint, than how the bin actually looks to me.

For years, actually from the mid 70s to early 90s, I was WAY into high end stereo equipment. I read all of the magazines and listened to much better equipment than I could afford. There used to be a popular magazine, started in the 50s or 60s, that reviewed stereo and hi-fi equipmenet. A major portion of their report was based on laboratory testing of distortion, power output, frequency response, ect, all measured to the ten-thousands of a percent. This coming from an earlier era when anything below 1% distortion was considered good. I had wonderful transistor amps that had .016% distortion, but after a while that old McIntosh tube quipment sounded better to me, even though it had 50 times the measured distortion. At that point I started believeing my ears over what the testing equipment measured. It wasn't that the test lied, it was just the testing perameters weren't relevant, for my ears at least.

When I joined this forum I put a lot of stock in the ALUA test and many other objective test, but I discovered that most of those optical properties exceeded the limit of my 20-10 vision, and that there were many ergonomic issues that outweighed the minute differences in optical quality for my eyes. But it still is fun to test, and argue the superiority of my binocular over yours...

John

Exactly my point! That is why I trust my eyes now to test binoculars. I look at a resolution chart and I evaluate the brightness but I find I can tell within a few days of viewing if I like one binocular better than another. That's the way is was with the Zen Rays. Within days I thought I definitely like the overall view of these better than my Leica's and my Nikon's. Why keep the Leica's when I like the view through the Zen Ray's better. I judge them by ergonomics also and the focusing action but you know in the end it's the view that gets me. I keep trying different binoculars to get a better view. One persons eyes may be different than another and issues with eye relief and blackouts may affect how much you like a certain binocular. I have said it before but I will say it again until I tried the Zen Rays no binoculars were really close to my Nikon 8x32 SE's. These are amazing roof prisms in that they are very ,very close to the Nikon's to my eyes. Amazingly nice binoculars especially for the money. I wanted to tell members of bird forum about them but some people get defensive because they think their Leicas or their Zeiss FL's are better. Maybe for their eyes they are. I have had alot of different binoculars but these are incredible binoculars for the money.

Dennis

 

[rjwims]

It's all for naught, as Lucky Lotus' are right around the corner :t:

ETA? :eek!:

 

[[email protected]]

It's all for naught, as Lucky Lotus' are right around the corner :t:

Will they be available in a 7x36 ED?

Dennis

 

[lulubelle]

Ok, I have to ask..who on earth makes a bin called Lucky Lotus?!!! I tried to google the name and got nothing for my efforts. Not looking for another bin, am satisfied with my Zens and PM's. Just curious. Lucky Lotus....really?!