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Passerines, Panama (1 Viewer)

michalb

Well-known member
Poland
Ok, so here's probably the last batch of questions from this winter's Central American trip.

First bird is just for confirmation, as I'm pretty convinced that it's a Great Crested Flycatcher (Myiarchus crinitus). Is it right?
Location: rainforest edge near Wizard Beach, Bastimentos Island, Bocas del Toro islands in north-western Panama
Date: 15.01.2020

The bird in the other two photos is probably a wood-warbler, but which one? I can't find any which is so featureless. Or maybe it's something else?
Location: rainforest above Old Bank Town, Bastimentos Island, Bocas del Toro islands in north-western Panama
Date: 15.01.2020

Thanks for any help!
 

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njlarsen

Gallery Moderator
Opus Editor
Supporter
Barbados
The yellow warbler could be either migratory northern form or local “mangrove warbler “, I am not sure
Niels
 

michalb

Well-known member
Poland
Thanks guys!

Niels, I think both are possible in this time and place and it seems immature females are rather difficult to separate. Anyway, "mangrove warbler" and "regular yellow" from the north aren't even subspecies, right?
 

njlarsen

Gallery Moderator
Opus Editor
Supporter
Barbados
Thanks guys!

Niels, I think both are possible in this time and place and it seems immature females are rather difficult to separate. Anyway, "mangrove warbler" and "regular yellow" from the north aren't even subspecies, right?

They are full species according to IOC, and subspecies groups according to Clements

Niels
 

pbjosh

missing the neotropics
Switzerland
They are full species according to IOC, and subspecies groups according to Clements

Niels

And the situation is really quite complex, with some phenotypes not matching up with genetic divisions - particularly, some insular "Mangrove" warblers look remarkably like migratory northern breeding "Yellow" warblers. There is a fair argument for splitting out the migratory birds, though field identification isn't always as straightforward as one might like. The various resident populations (ie, "Mangrove" warblers) are quite complex phenotypically / genetically.

If anyone cares for more reading, the (failed) 2018 proposal to NACC to split out the migrant birds is quite informative as to the current understanding of everything:

http://checklist.aou.org/assets/proposals/PDF/2018-C.pdf

Committee members' comments can be read here:

http://checklist.aou.org/nacc/proposals/comments/2018_C_comments_web.html#2018-C-2

Cheers,
Josh
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
Cyprus
And the situation is really quite complex, with some phenotypes not matching up with genetic divisions - particularly, some insular "Mangrove" warblers look remarkably like migratory northern breeding "Yellow" warblers. There is a fair argument for splitting out the migratory birds, though field identification isn't always as straightforward as one might like. The various resident populations (ie, "Mangrove" warblers) are quite complex phenotypically / genetically.

If anyone cares for more reading, the (failed) 2018 proposal to NACC to split out the migrant birds is quite informative as to the current understanding of everything:

http://checklist.aou.org/assets/proposals/PDF/2018-C.pdf

Committee members' comments can be read here:

http://checklist.aou.org/nacc/proposals/comments/2018_C_comments_web.html#2018-C-2

Cheers,
Josh

I thought 'Mangrove' Warbler were named after their preffered habitat and were restricted to the coast for that reason?
 

Sherpa

Very active member ;-)
Flippant reply: but if we can't tell them apart, how do we know they're restricted to mangroves?

You would have a fair idea in the breeding season when Mangrove Warblers are on territory and Yellow Warblers are up north.

You can also consider how many sightings of adult male Mangrove Warblers there are away from their preferred habitat at any time of year.

Of course, wandering immature Mangrove Warblers could remain undetected. And Yellow Warblers wintering in mangroves are a very real possibility, even though most of them will be chased off by territorial Mangrove Warblers.
 
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THE_FERN

Well-known member
You would have a fair idea in the breeding season when Mangrove Warblers are on territory and Yellow Warblers are up north.

You can also consider how many sightings of adult male Mangrove Warblers there are away from their preferred habitat at any time of year.

Of course, wandering immature Mangrove Warblers could remain undetected. And Yellow Warblers wintering in mangroves are a very real possibility, even though most of them will be chased off by territorial Mangrove Warblers.

So the important time is clearly winter when both are in the same country. I don't know about the territoriality of this/these species, but wonder how territorial they are likely to be at this time of year. In other words, unless there are unusual circumstances, I'm not sure you can confidently ID them in winter (unless there are ringing studies, I'm not clear we even know that residents stay in the mangroves then... You can't assume that a species which breeds in one habitat spends the winter there)

[Edit: a scan read of the SACC proposal put me in mind of the big white-headed gulls of n. hemisphere where I get the impression (from v superficial reading) that the DNA evidence is pretty poor, there's extensive hybridisation etc etc but now Caspian and others are accepted species. I keep saying that taxonomy will never be anything other than subjective and we should make our own informed decisions about what we believe]
 
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