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Pentax Papilo images don't merge. (1 Viewer)

davekelley

Active member
Hi all
I recently purchased a pair of Papilo 6.5x. I found that I could not merge the images into one circle when focusing up closer than about 1.5mtrs. I returned them to the dealer and he sent me out a pair that he had tested himself and were working properly, but I have the same issue. Does anyone know what is going on? Is it my eyes/brain? Would I fare better with some of the 8.5x ? Anyone else had this problem? I can see how much fun these things would be for watching wildlife in the garden, insects and plants etc, and I'm torn as to whether I want to keep them or not. I'm a bit gutted tbf.
Any ideas please?
(I won't use them for general birding as I have some Nikon Monarch 7 8x30's and they are far better for birding so they are purely for pottering around the garden looking at insects and stuff.
Thanks for reading

Dave
 

PYRTLE

Old Berkshire Boy
Occassionally you have to alter / reduce the IPD of the binocular when focusing the instrument down to it's closest range.

Does this not occur slightly when you use the Nikon 8 x 30 at it's closest focus?
 

WJC

Well-known member
You are focusing inside the binocular. Thus, you are crossing your eyes. And what happens when you cross your eyes? Bingo!
 

davekelley

Active member
Occassionally you have to alter / reduce the IPD of the binocular when focusing the instrument down to it's closest range.

Does this not occur slightly when you use the Nikon 8 x 30 at it's closest focus?
I can not get a circular image no matter how I adjust the ipd! I've tried. I think it must be my face!
 

davekelley

Active member
I can not get a circular image no matter how I adjust the ipd! I've tried. I think it must be my face!
It does happen in the Nikons but I didn't buy them for close up use. I assumed the Papilo were designed to give a perfectly merged image at closest focus, I believe the objectives move closer together to achieve this? Are you saying that it is normal and I should get used to it? I do intend to try.
 

PYRTLE

Old Berkshire Boy
Very little I think, perhaps exchange for a well made close focusing monocular if you really are after close up views of resting insects and plants.
 

jring

Well-known member
Hi,

actually the objectives of the Papilios are quite close together in the first place and I think they go even closer together toward the minimum focus. This normally works fine for most users.

Is it possible that you are squinting slightly?

I do and when using a borrowed pair of bins on vacation once, I could absolutely not get the images to merge on that pair but everybody else said they were fine for them.

Since one of my friends is an eye doctor, he had closer look and saw that I was squinting slightly despite the fact that I normally don't have problems (and he was right, I used to wear a special pair of glasses with a prism prescription because of that as a little kid).

Joachim
 

Binastro

Well-known member
I sometimes have a prism correction with my glasses, depending on the type of glasses.
This varies year by year.
I have reading glasses, computer glasses, T.V. glasses, distance glasses and astro glasses. All different.
Also cheap window shopping glasses where there is no correction at all.
At the longer distances there is no prism correction

The yearly tests take 90 minutes, with a fastest at 75 minutes.
However, because of Covid I haven't had a test for two years or more.
My eyes have changed, but I make do with what I have.

The Papilio objectives move closer, but parallel to each other.
If one looks into the front one can see the curved tracks.

A Minolta patent close binocular had variable tilt objectives as well as they moved sideways, but I don't think it went into production.

Personally, I don't have problems with the 6.5x21 Papilio 1 or 2 at any distance.
I don't use glasses with binoculars except sometimes to increase the binocular magnification.

The only problems I have is rolling ball with, say, the Russian 7x30 or 10x42.
Also blackouts with, say, the Nikon SE.
Many modern binoculars have far too much eye relief for me, and even if the binoculars are very good, I don't use them.
There are a few binoculars such as the Soviet 12x40 and Japanese 30x80 where the eye relief is too small for me.

The Zeiss 5x10 monocular has ridiculously long eye relief.
To use it I put my distance glasses on and rest the monocular against a lens of the glasses to get a stable image.

Regards,
B..
 
Last edited:

davekelley

Active member
I sometimes have a prism correction with my glasses, depending on the type of glasses.
This varies year by year.
I have reading glasses, computer glasses, T.V. glasses, distance glasses and astro glasses. All different.
Also cheap window shopping glasses where there is no correction at all.
At the longer distances there is no prism correction

The yearly tests take 90 minutes, with a fastest at 75 minutes.
However, because of Covid I haven't had a test for two years or more.
My eyes have changed, but I make do with what I have.

The Papilio objectives move closer, but parallel to each other.
If one looks into the front one can see the curved tracks.

A Minolta patent close binocular had variable tilt objectives as well as they moved sideways, but I don't think it went into production.

Personally, I don't have problems with the 6.5x21 Papilio 1 or 2 at any distance.
I don't use glasses with binoculars except sometimes to increase the binocular magnification.

The only problems I have is rolling ball with, say, the Russian 7x30 or 10x42.
Also blackouts with, say, the Nikon SE.
Many modern binoculars have far too much eye relief for me, and even if the binoculars are very good, I don't use them.
There are a few binoculars such as the Soviet 12x40 and Japanese 30x80 where the eye relief is too small for me.

The Zeiss 5x10 monocular has ridiculously long eye relief.
To use it I put my distance glasses on and rest the monocular against a lens of the glasses to get a stable image.

Regards,
B..
I agree a lot of binoculars these days have too much eye relief and I think it might be my problem. With the Monarch 7 8x30's I have to hold the bins in front of my eyes, resting on the bridge of my nose to take in the fov. I would prefer to bury my eyes in the eyecups! I guess it's my ipd that is too wide? I expect the 8.5x21 would be even worse?
 

WJC

Well-known member
You are focusing inside the binocular. Thus, you are crossing your eyes. And what happens when you cross your eyes? Bingo!
I guess it's possible I squint. I'm just a little disappointed at the image, but i do think I'll keep the bins......
The Internet is full of well-meaning folks who have been inundated with so much Blarney—from armchair “experts”—over the years, they have adopted much of it into their own knowledge base.

The old wives’ tale—which would have been better left with the old wives—is that if you see TWO fields of view that don’t overlap, your binocular is out of collimation. This MIGHT be true if you’re looking a distant target. If trying to observe something a few inches to a very few feet away ... it isn’t. You’re seeing what the laws of physics and your own physiology say you should be seeing!

I once heard a fellow say he didn’t see why he couldn’t get a good 7x50 that would fit in his shirt pocket. Well, I don’t see why can’t get an elephant in my mailbox. That’s just the way it is.

At very close range, the fields will appear to diverge as they converge greatly and cross over because your eyes are crossed, and you are focusing unnaturally close. If your IMAGE is in focus, don’t worry about overlapping fields. The laws of physics aren’t going to change because we don’t understand them. As Aristotle was prone to say, “Don’t worry; be happy.”

The realities of optics present us with many compromises.

Bill
 
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jring

Well-known member
Hi Bill,

sorry, but I beg to disagree. Users should be able to use a pair of Pentax Papilio to observe an object at ranges down to 0.5m w/o a double image or going cross-eyed - if the pair of Papilio, the eyes of the user and the handling of the binoculars are ok.

Your argument is of course correct for normal binoculars (with the distance of the objectives being equal to the set IPD or larger) at very close ranges but the reverse porro configuration with very close distance between the objectives makes normal observation without going cross-eyed possible down to around 0.5m.

Joachim
 

davekelley

Active member
Oh dear, I don't know what to believe. I expect my ipd is too wide for these things to work for me. I did not expect to see a double image and I don't think I like it. Don't know what to do really.
 

davekelley

Active member
You are focusing inside the binocular. Thus, you are crossing your eyes. And what happens when you cross your eyes? Bingo!

The Internet is full of well-meaning folks who have been inundated with so much Blarney—from armchair “experts”—over the years, they have adopted much of it into their own knowledge base.

The old wives’ tale—which would have been better left with the old wives—is that if you see TWO fields of view that don’t overlap, your binocular is out of collimation. This MIGHT be true if you’re looking a distant target. If trying to observe something a few inches to a very few feet away ... it isn’t. You’re seeing what the laws of physics and your own physiology say you should be seeing!

I once heard a fellow say he didn’t see why he couldn’t get a good 7x50 that would fit in his shirt pocket. Well, I don’t see why can’t get an elephant in my mailbox. That’s just the way it is.

At very close range, the fields will appear to diverge as they converge greatly and cross over because your eyes are crossed, and you are focusing unnaturally close. If your IMAGE is in focus, don’t worry about overlapping fields. The laws of physics aren’t going to change because we don’t understand them. As Aristotle was prone to say, “Don’t worry; be happy.”

The realities of optics present us with many compromises.

Bill
But these are reverse porro prism and the objectives actually move as you focus in close, unlike any other binoculars and I was expecting to see a merged image, So far, nobody has said they have a pair of these and they get a merged image! I am confused. They are a unique design specifically for extreme close up observing.
Not sure what to think!
 

davekelley

Active member
Hi,

can you ask somebody else to test 'em at close range to make sure they're ok?

Joachim
I did ask the dealer to test them for me before shipping. My wife can't see a thing without her glasses but I'll have to get someone else to try them it's a good idea.
 

Binastro

Well-known member
Hi Dave,
I have the Pentax Papilio II now and have looked at this screen.

I get a good image but the two circles of the field stops are not merged.
If I reduce the separation of the eyepieces then I still get a good image but both field stop circles are merged as one.
In both cases the images are well aligned for me.

I prefer the image with the two circles of the field stops unmerged but the central image well merged.
This is with the wider eyepiece separation.

This is at minimum distance, which for me may be 55cm being farsighted. Not using glasses.

It may be that your IPD is out of the range of the binocular.
I'll measure the range.

It could be that you need a prism correction or simply that your eyes cannot comfortably use the binocular.

It is possible the binocular is not properly collimated.
A person with a similar IPD to yours should try the binocular.
Preferably an optics person.

Maybe a close focus monocular is best.
I am not sure which one is in the Papilio II price range.

This should not be a cause for distress as there are many optics available in the vast range that exists nowadays.
In my opinion there are too many binoculars available, but not the ones I really want.

Regards,
B.
 

Binastro

Well-known member
The IPD range of this Pentax 6.5x21 Papilio II is about 54.5mm to 74mm.
The lighting isn't good here. I'll try it in better lighting, but it is fairly accurate.

However, with the close focus ability this IPD may not be entirely relevant.

Regards,
B.
 

pat mitchel

Well-known member
davekelly; I merge the images in my papilios fine at close distance, the circles never merge, the images do. If you look at a flower up close, centered in the right eyepiece, close that eye while holding the binocs steady, the flower will likely be at the far right side of the image in the left eyepiece. A significant portion of each circle overlaps but doesn't overlap completely. Regards, Pat
 
ZEISS. Discover the fascinating world of birds, and win a birding trip to Columbia
ZEISS. Discover the fascinating world of birds, and win a birding trip to Columbia
ZEISS. Discover the fascinating world of birds, and win a birding trip to Columbia

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