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Raptor ID? (1 Viewer)

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VTM

VTM
Nepal
Hello, posting this picture of raptor that I took yesterday, not a very good picture though. I am not sure what raptor is this for sure. Could it be Steppe Eagle or some other raptor.
Thanks_MG_7349.JPG
 
Thank you bfor. Unfortunately I can't help as I'm unfamiliar with the raptors of the region, but hopefully someone with more expertise will see this thread soon.
 
Heavily barred remiges, dark centered coverts forming dark band and long rounded tail perhaps look better for Tawny Eagle than Great Spotted, or Steppe Eagle, (imo LSE would not be an option)

Just to add (since no one else has commented) Steppe and Tawny are quite similar in plumage and structure, Tawny having more diffuse barring on the primaries (I think?!) and a shorter, broader wing shape with a more ample hand than Steppe - and are also smaller. On structure, it looks better for Tawny to me. Apparently, a pale window formed by the 3 inner primaries (which the OP appears to show although the tips appear to show a dusky tip) is supposed to be diagnostic for Tawny http://www.dickforsman.com/bird-identification/ but some Steppes seem to show this too.

I don’t really have the experience here so hoping someone else will step up, but some images to compare if it’s any help? (there’s no guarantee they are all correctly labelled, I’ve seen some on ebird that look better for one but labelled the other)



Steppe

Either would be possible for location and time of year with perhaps movements of Steppe making them more visible?
 
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Deb Burhinus said:
Heavily barred remiges, dark centered median covert band and long rounded tail perhaps look better for Tawny Eagle than Great Spotted or Steppe Eagle imo (LSE would not be an option)
Click to expand...
Indian Tawny Eagle Aquila (rapax) vindhiana...? It occurs in Nepal (IOC 10.2)...
 
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Deb Burhinus said:
Heavily barred remiges, dark centered coverts forming dark band and long rounded tail perhaps look better for Tawny Eagle than Great Spotted, or Steppe Eagle, (imo LSE would not be an option)

Just to add (since no one else has commented) Steppe and Tawny are quite similar in plumage and structure, Tawny having more diffuse barring on the primaries (I think?!) and a shorter, broader wing shape with a more ample hand than Steppe - and are also smaller. On structure, it looks better for Tawny to me. Apparently, a pale window formed by the 3 inner primaries (which the OP appears to show although the tips appear to show a dusky tip) is supposed to be diagnostic for Tawny http://www.dickforsman.com/bird-identification/ but some Steppes seem to show this too.

I don’t really have the experience here so hoping someone else will step up, but some images to compare if it’s any help? (there’s no guarantee they are all correctly labelled, I’ve seen some on ebird that look better for one but labelled the other)



Steppe

Either would be possible for location and time of year with perhaps movements of Steppe making them more visible?
Click to expand...
Thanks Deb for this great information. Its great comparison with all the pictures from the link you shared. The first link of OBC is so much similar and your description, make me come how convince that it is TE. and I love this group of birds too but can be very very difficult to confirm unless other person confirms
Best of regards/Vimal
 
Deb Burhinus said:
Sorry, I was assuming it would be an Indian ssp in Nepal anyway - see my links

I’m slightly confused with the Taxonomy, Clements treats Indian Tawny as a separate sp but it’s treated as subspecific by IOC and elsewhere https://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/species.jsp?avibaseid=F6D547B28875698E
Click to expand...
I think I'm right in saying that it's one of many cases where the application of a suite of DNA techniques is needed for certainty one way or another. Retaining "(rapax)" thus, allows for the uncertainty to be kept in view.
MJB
 
MJB said:
I think I'm right in saying that it's one of many cases where the application of a suite of DNA techniques is needed for certainty one way or another. Retaining "(rapax)" thus, allows for the uncertainty to be kept in view.
MJB
Click to expand...
Thanks M.

Can we assume that the English name ‘Tawny’ can also apply to both given that the IOC does not recognise ‘Indian Tawny’ as a separate species from ‘Tawny Eagle’? Also, on range, given Tawny Eagle races are largely allopatric and sedentary, do we really need to include consideration of the African races(A.r. rapax and A.r.belisarius) when considering Tawny Eagles in Nepal in order to avoid ambiguity or is it fair to say, when one is referring to ‘Tawny Eagle’ in Asia, we are referring to the Tawny Eagle that occurs in Asia rather than those occuring in Africa?

I’m not sure I could get used to referring to Tawny Eagles in India as ‘Indian’ Tawny Eagles in order to avoid confusion, it feels a bit redundant! (Unless they were split of course and Tawny Eagles from Asia were to be eventually recognised by the IOC as a separate species from those found in Africa) 😏

ps - just checked ebird - it seems no distinction is made here so any Tawny Eagles found in Asia I believe, should be entered as ‘Tawny Eagle‘.
 
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Fully agree with Deb here, once split we can use a new name. As to the bird personnaly I can't decide if it is a Steppe or a Tawny, in 'Birds of Prey of the Indian Subcontinent' Rishad Naoroji writes that some boldly marked Tawny cannot be identified in winter but only in spring when Steppe will migrate north and these individuals will start breeding
 
Deb, I think you might have misunderstood what Avibase said. For Clements it writes "Aquila rapax vindhiana"

The only authority listed that recognizes it as a full species is
Commission internationale pour les noms français des oiseaux (1993):

Niels
 
njlarsen said:
Deb, I think you might have misunderstood what Avibase said. For Clements it writes "Aquila rapax vindhiana"

The only authority listed that recognizes it as a full species is
Commission internationale pour les noms français des oiseaux (1993):

Niels
Click to expand...
I wonder if they'll be vindhicated in the long term . . . 🤪



(I'll get me coat ...)
 
njlarsen said:
Deb, I think you might have misunderstood what Avibase said. For Clements it writes "Aquila rapax vindhiana"

The only authority listed that recognizes it as a full species is
Commission internationale pour les noms français des oiseaux (1993):

Niels
Click to expand...
  • “
    • Aquila rapax rapax: southern Kenya and Democratic Republic of the Congo to Angola, Namibia and South Africa
    • Aquila rapax belisarius: Morocco and Algeria; s Arabia and w Africa to n Kenya
    • Aquila vindhiana: Locally in Pakistan, India and s Nepal
from Clements checklist“

Aquila [rapax or vindhiana] (Tawny or Asian Tawny Eagle) - Avibase

avibase.bsc-eoc.org avibase.bsc-eoc.org

I actually I don’t think I ‘misunderstand’ anything - It was just a direct quote from the above link, which then may or may not be incorrect - perhaps it is a typo?

“Aquila vindhiana” without the ‘rapax’ doesn’t indicate a subspecies of rapex but a separate species in my book! Or perhaps they are following in MJB’s ambiguity proposition and giving the latin name as a separate species while listing it under the nominate species?

That’s what I was referring to but as said above, the taxonomic treatment is ambiguous as MJB stated.
 
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So, right at the top of the page? this means Avibase itself recognizes the Indian form as a full species. If you scroll down a lot, you will see a lot of entries where I am quoting just one:
Clements 5th edition (as published):
Tawny Eagle ( Aquila rapax) [version 1]

Over on the right and near the top, there is a blue box stating related taxa. In there, there is a link for Aquila vindhiana
which leads to this page: https://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/species.jsp?lang=EN&avibaseid=6315D2AA&sec=summary&ssver=1

If you scroll down far enough you will see entries such as
Clements 5th edition (as published):
Aquila rapax vindhiana [version 1]

There is no entry listed under Clements that do not include the middle rapax part.

Niels
 
and on the side of the page listing - isn’t very clear but all three seem to be grouped under Aquila rapax but ‘Asian‘ Tawny treated differently to the African races

Aquila [rapax, vindhiana or nipalensis]
  • ▼Aquila [rapax or vindhiana]
    • ▼Aquila rapax
      • Aquila rapax rapax
      • ▼Aquila rapax belisarius
        • Aquila rapax belisarius (belisarius)
        • Aquila rapax belisarius (raptor)
    • Aquila vindhiana
  • ▼Aquila nipalensis
    • ▼Aquila nipalensis nipalensis
      • Aquila nipalensis nipalensis (nipalensis)
      • Aquila nipalensis nipalensis (amurensis)
    • ▼Aquila nipalensis orientalis
      • Aquila nipalensis orientalis (orientalis)
      • Aquila nipalensis orientalis (pallasii)
      • Aquila nipalensis orientalis (glitschi)
 
njlarsen said:
There is no entry listed under Clements that do not include the middle rapax part.
Click to expand...
Then it must be a misquote on Avibase because they say it is taken from Clements.

I didnt check Clements itself however, so if Clements treats ‘Indian Tawny’ as subspecific, fair enough. Apologies to Clements for the misrepresentation.

I have checked the links now and indeed see the full taxonomic treatment by all the authorities AviB uses. As stated above, Clements treats Asian TEs as subspecific.

Either way, it supports my original point that it doesn’t merit a separate English name as it stands with the main authorities and to be fair, who knew the full taxonomic treatment of this species before this discussion without needing to look it up - I didn’t but do now.🙂
 
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