Re-lumping of Common & GW Teal (1 Viewer)

[MichaelRetter]

Wow.

 

[Richard Klim]

Winker et al

Peters, McCracken, Pruett, Rohwer, Drovetski, Zhuravlev, Kulikova, Gibson & Winker (in press). A parapatric propensity for breeding precludes the completion of speciation in common teal (Anas crecca, sensu lato). Mol Ecol. [abstract]

[A (c) carolinensis is recognised as a species by (eg) IOC, AERC, BOU and CSNA; but not by BirdLife, AOU or Cornell (Clements).]

Winker, McCracken, Gibson & Peters (in press). Heteropatric speciation in a duck, Anas crecca. Mol Ecol. [abstract] [supp info]

Carboneras 1992 (HBW 1).

[Gibson & Byrd 2007 (Birds of the Aleutian Islands, Alaska) synonymised nimia with nominate crecca.]

PS. Peters et al 2012. Mol Ecol 21(18): 4563–4577. [pdf]

 

[Farnboro John]

Winker, McCracken, Gibson & Peters (in press). Heteropatric speciation in a duck, Anas crecca. Mol Ecol. [abstract] [supp info]

Carboneras 1992 (HBW 1).

[Gibson & Byrd 2007 (Birds of the Aleutian Islands, Alaska) synonymised nimia with nominate crecca.]

PS. Peters et al 2012. Mol Ecol 21(18): 4563–4577. [pdf]

In English, please. I've read the abstracts but I'm not sure what they are saying apart from different bits of the genome give different results, which is surely not unexpected.

John

 

[John o'Sullivan]

There is a green winged teal in pembrokeshire at present not too far away from St Davids cathedral ( I am visiting St D tomorrow). I am finally not too far away from 300 species in Britain.

Is G-W-Teal a good species or just an example of the current penchant for splitting primarily for conservation purposes. I don't want to tick fake species.

Edit: Aaaaah just had a look at the abstract above, argues that still too much gene flow to allow categorisation as species for whatever purposes. I won't bother twitching then.

 

[Richard Klim]

Is G-W-Teal a good species or just an example of the current penchant for splitting primarily for conservation purposes.

Depends who you ask...

• YES: eg, IOC, AERC-TAC, BOURC, CSNA
• NO: eg, H&M4, BirdLife (conservation-oriented), eBird/Clements, AOU

 

[John o'Sullivan]

if there is that much disagreement I'm not going to tick it.

 

[Farnboro John]

if there is that much disagreement I'm not going to tick it.

Just go and see it as an interesting race then. Why deny yourself a spot of birding?

John

 

[Mysticete]

It's an iffy split....but wasn't made for conservation reasons.

 

[njlarsen]

Just go and see it as an interesting race then. Why deny yourself a spot of birding?

John

Agree. It is a different form. To focus too much on species versus subspecies will in the end deny yourself some good experiences. By seeing this one, you may better develop your own opinion of what is right

Niels

 

[Snapdragyn]

Nah, don't see it. That way you'll guarantee THE decisive study proving beyond ANY doubt that it is a good species will come out soon, & then the rest of us can have a good tick.

 

[John o'Sullivan]

I'm going to find one on the Teifi sooner or later so will see one then.

I wonder if the definitive split becomes less likely as time passes with howling westerlies USA to UK more or less throughout the year now. I wonder if we'll get more this side of the Atlantic, perhaps a few staying to breed with Common Teal and therefore eventually less genetic divergence.

Of course from a fundamentalist conservation perspective this should be seen as a threat to bio-diversity.

Climate Change is leading to a change in the world's weather patterns

Climate Change is man-made

Climate Change is unnatural, therefore any rise in GW teal numbersthis side of the atlantic resulting from changes in weather patterns would be unnatural

GW teal over here threatens the specific status of Common Teal and GW Teal

The obvious solution Kill any GW teal over here

Now the Defra types haven't any Ruddies to kill we could send them out to Shoot GW Teal?

Snapdragyn, do I know you?? One of the reasons I gave up twitching was it seemed like I was a Jonah, we constantly missed birds, got rained on, got stuck in traffic etc when I joined a trip yet the following trip (without me) everything went without a hitch, usually a bonus bird or two thrown in for luck. Your logic re my not seeing GW teal for others sake fits perfectly with my lived experience. John

 

[Hotspur]

They have always turned up in good numbers and probably have bred with the Teal over here somewhere but they aren't going to swamp Common Teals genome - there are too many Common Teal.

 

[John o'Sullivan]

I'm guessing that they won't swamp the genome but they might swop genes enough to prevent full speciation. Perhaps in greater numbers than ever before.

Common Teal get to the USA as well

"Common Teal are rare but somewhat regular along both the North American Pacific and Atlantic coasts. Records away from these coasts are rare and include eastern Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Texas, New Mexico, and Ohio (Edwards 1932, Hamilton et al. 2007, Harris and Gerstenberg 1968, Sibley 2000, Gillson 2004, Barnes 2008, Sturts 2008, Sandy Williams, pers. communication; http://www.texasbirds.org/tbrc/gwteal.htm)."

Any-way not a tick as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Richard Klim]

Common Teal get to the USA as well

Common/Eurasian Teal (subspecies nimia, sometimes synonymised with nominate crecca) is a resident breeder in the Aleutian Islands, Alaska.

 

[Nightjar61]

Common Teal get to the USA as well

One showed up in Maryland last February and I went to see it. If Common Teal and Green-winged Teal are ever split again, I'll have an armchair tick. If not, it was nevertheless a neat experience to see it and compare it with the Green-winged Teal it was hanging around with.

Dave

 

[Jane Turner]

Quite a few of the GWTeal that turn up here already look a little less than perfect.

 

[Steve Lister]

Quite a few of the GWTeal that turn up here already look a little less than perfect.

Should a pure Green-winged Teal show any horizontal white line at all?

Two recent birds local to me have looked fine most of the time but both have showed a narrow white line above a black line along the top of the flanks after a bit of a shuffle - same place as the broad white band on Eurasian Teal but far narrower and less obvious.

When you look through photos of GW Teals quite a few do show this. Is it an indication of a hybrid?

Steve

 

[John o'Sullivan]

Are there other equally dodgy ticks that I should be aware of on grounds that they are genetically too similar to be reliably seen as full species.

As was established on another thread (thanks to a paper quoted by Richard?) all Fea's types are one species and I'll tick those as only one species however many different types I end up seeing.

Scottish Xbill I think is just a slightly different version of Common Xbill but not different enough?

Is this correct and if so any others?

One last question can you have hybrid GWT/Common Teal if they are the same species wouldn't this be an intergrade?

 

[Snapdragyn]

Snapdragyn, do I know you?? One of the reasons I gave up twitching was it seemed like I was a Jonah, we constantly missed birds, got rained on, got stuck in traffic etc when I joined a trip yet the following trip (without me) everything went without a hitch, usually a bonus bird or two thrown in for luck. Your logic re my not seeing GW teal for others sake fits perfectly with my lived experience. John

Don't believe so; probably just recognizing a kindred spirit in the 'setting up the next group for a twitch' world, heh.

 

[Farnboro John]

As was established on another thread (thanks to a paper quoted by Richard?) all Fea's types are one species and I'll tick those as only one species however many different types I end up seeing.

I think the current treatment of the Fea's group is that there is a different species of petrel in each burrow: many thousands of species. I may be misinterpreting the data of course.

John