• BirdForum is the net's largest birding community dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE!

    Register for an account to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Red dot sight (1 Viewer)

jkingrph

Well-known member
Has anyone thought of mounting a small red dot rifle sight to their spotting scope for finding a subject quicker. I'm thinking of the idea of mounting a piece of aluminum angle, to the scope base, then a short piece of pictanny rail to mount a red dot sight. I think it would make aiming my angle eyepiece scope much easier.
 

Hauksen

Forum member
Hi,

Has anyone thought of mounting a small red dot rifle sight to their spotting scope for finding a subject quicker. I'm thinking of the idea of mounting a piece of aluminum angle, to the scope base, then a short piece of pictanny rail to mount a red dot sight. I think it would make aiming my angle eyepiece scope much easier.

Sure!

You can find a thorough discussion and a number of solutions here::

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=346712&highlight=reflex

(I prefer the term "reflex sight" because it's more suitable for the simple text search function of the forum engine, but a rose by any name ... ;-)

Regards,

Henning
 

Canip

Well-known member
.... or like this?
 

Attachments

  • E1349085-DB4D-43B5-A1B6-CC314A494C93.jpg
    E1349085-DB4D-43B5-A1B6-CC314A494C93.jpg
    105.5 KB · Views: 112

wllmspd

Well-known member
I just sight down the handle of my APM, but did make an adapter for a rail mounted red dot finder as shown above. Depends what magnification you area working at.

Peter
 

jkingrph

Well-known member
I'm still in the planning stage on this. I have a Manfrotto 500ah fluid head, and wanted a qd mount for my scope, as well as my camera that is a lot smaller than that long wide plate, so I made a spacer to raise a Manfrotto 323 base that uses their smaller 200 pl plates, so the safety would work. I needed about rise. I'm thinking a piece of aluminum angle 3 inches by 5 inches will give me enough offset and height to mount a short piece of pitcanny rail that will then mount a reflex sight, about centerline to the scope.
 

Hauksen

Forum member
Hi,

I'm still in the planning stage on this. I have a Manfrotto 500ah fluid head, and wanted a qd mount for my scope, as well as my camera that is a lot smaller than that long wide plate, so I made a spacer to raise a Manfrotto 323 base that uses their smaller 200 pl plates, so the safety would work.

As I'm not familiar with the various bits of hardware involved, but quite curious about your solution ... would have some pictures of the setup? :)

Regards,

Henning
 

jkingrph

Well-known member
Nothing done yet. As I said I have a Manfrotto 500ah fluid head. I have a lightweight and a larger heavier tripod and have mounted a smaller Manfrotto 323 qd base on the heads so I can use their smaller 200pl quick detachable plate. I went this route because as a rifle shooter I have a scope stand that clamps onto my shooting bench where I do not have room for a tripod, and have the same mounting system on this stand also. I also equipped my camera with the same qd plate so I will have the same system for both my spotting scope and camera. Now my plan for the reflex sight are to basically mount a piece of large 3" x 5" aluminum 90 degree angle between the fluid head and the 323 base and then mount the reflex sight on the piece of angle .

So far I just have the material on order and have not received anything to work with yet. I had another brainstorm this morning which may be simpler. I will try mounting the reflex sight to one of the little 200 plates(similar to an Arca type plate) and just aim my base, lock it tight on the tripod , then remove and attach the scope and see how close it is aimed.
 

Hauksen

Forum member
Hi,

Now my plan for the reflex sight are to basically mount a piece of large 3" x 5" aluminum 90 degree angle between the fluid head and the 323 base and then mount the reflex sight on the piece of angle .

So it would look like this?

- QD Plate (on scope)
- QD 323 Bases (on heads)
- Planned: Aluminium angle (on head)
- Fluid heads (on tripods)
- Tripod (2 variants)

I had another brainstorm this morning which may be simpler. I will try mounting the reflex sight to one of the little 200 plates(similar to an Arca type plate) and just aim my base, lock it tight on the tripod , then remove and attach the scope and see how close it is aimed.

Just experiementally, or do you plan on using this procedure in the field?

In my experience, you're probably going to have to adjust the sight so it coincedes with the scope, but if your mounting is good, it should give repeatable alignment even after removing and re-mounting.

(I'm struggling with that a bit on my low-profile mountings. My first solution, though rather bulky, was perfectly fine.)

Regards,

Henning
 

jkingrph

Well-known member
Hi,



So it would look like this?

- QD Plate (on scope)
- QD 323 Bases (on heads)
- Planned: Aluminium angle (on head)
- Fluid heads (on tripods)
- Tripod (2 variants)



Just experiementally, or do you plan on using this procedure in the field?

In my experience, you're probably going to have to adjust the sight so it coincedes with the scope, but if your mounting is good, it should give repeatable alignment even after removing and re-mounting.

(I'm struggling with that a bit on my low-profile mountings. My first solution, though rather bulky, was perfectly fine.)

Regards,

Henning

That pretty sums it up. I have the red dot sight here, but other material has not yet arrived. My fluid head has a long qd plate. I did not want that on my 35mm camera, so installed a smaller 323 base on top of it so I could use the
smaller 200 qd plates. Because of the safety lock I had to make a riser block, which took some careful measuring and drilling . My thinking is to mount the big aluminum angle on the fluid head plate and use it as the riser block, and carefully align and mount the 323 plate to it and again carefully align and mount a piece of pictnanny rail to it so I can attach the red dot, sideways on the center line of the scope. If I align things close enough there should be enough adjustment in the red dot to make the reticule show where the scope is aimed.

For fun I tried hand holding the red dot on top of the fluid head and aiming, then moving it out of the way and mounting the scope. It did fine as far as elevation as I could hold it firmly to the base, hand aligning for windeage was not great, I was probably off by 4-5 meters at a range of 250 meters estimated., not great but still better than trying to aim the angled scope with no aid.
 

jkingrph

Well-known member
I don't understand what the dot in the high power scope would accomplish. My problem is aligning an angled eyepiece spotting scope with a narrow field of view on the target. That's why I am thinking a red dot with an extremely wide field of view and just offset the spotting scope will help to aim it. Looking at your first link, I think that device will be for illuminating a reticule inside a scope, no use to me.

I just got my aluminum angle in yesterday. It's so large and thick I may take it to a local metalworking shop to have a piece cut to the proper length for my purpose. With everything going on around here and my picking up a few days of work, it may be early next year before it start work on this project.

I do understand the concept of using the red dot sight. I acutally use a very low power rifle scope in much the same manner.
 
Last edited:

Hans Weigum

Well-known member
......I do understand the concept of using the red dot sight. ......

xxxxxxxx

But you did not understand the concept of my suggestion. I thought it is quite obvious, that it does not work neither with angled eyepieces nor with binoculars. As you are only interested in your particular application: Just ignore my suggestion.

HW
 

jkingrph

Well-known member
......I do understand the concept of using the red dot sight. ......

xxxxxxxx

But you did not understand the concept of my suggestion. I thought it is quite obvious, that it does not work neither with angled eyepieces nor with binoculars. As you are only interested in your particular application: Just ignore my suggestion.

HW

No, I really did not see a suggestion. I thought it was rather obvious that I had indicated that I was trying to get to an easier point to aim an angled eyepiece spotting scope. I have used a red dot sight on a rifle, and prefer a conventional low power rifle scope with either crosshairs or post and crosshair for aiming. I know of the Trijicon products, and they are excellent but out of my price range. I currently have one of the Leupold red dot or reflex type sights on one of my rifles for use in low light conditions where it is difficult to see the crosshair reticule in a scope.
 

Hauksen

Forum member
Hi Hans,

But you did not understand the concept of my suggestion. I thought it is quite obvious, that it does not work neither with angled eyepieces nor with binoculars.

Hm, I guess I didn't quite understand the implications of the technology you presented either.

The page on the Bindon concept isn't explicit on this, but it's my impression that the concept is supposed to work only with a 1x magnification, and while I could imagine it might work with slight higher magnifications too, I'm not convinced one would still get a useful dot at the typical magnifications of a birding scope. In that case, the "Docter point" would not be of any real help in target acquisition, and not actually serve the same purpose as the reflex sights we're discussing.

(I believe Voigtländer cameras were selling with 1x viewfinders to allow the photographer "both eyes open" composition long before Bindon came along, by the way.)

Regards,

Henning
 

Hans Weigum

Well-known member
Hi Hans,

Hm, I guess I didn't quite understand the implications of the technology you presented either.

The page on the Bindon concept isn't explicit on this, but it's my impression that the concept is supposed to work only with a 1x magnification, and while I could imagine it might work with slight higher magnifications too, I'm not convinced one would still get a useful dot at the typical magnifications of a birding scope. In that case, the "Docter point" would not be of any real help in target acquisition, and not actually serve the same purpose as the reflex sights we're discussing.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hallo
another explanation, in words:
quote

..."Bindon Aiming Concept",
an aiming technique developed by Trijicon founder and optical designer Glyn Bindon. The technique is essentially using the illuminated part of the reticle and its focusing rear eyepiece as a collimator sight.[12] As in any other collimator sight, the user does not actually look through the sight but instead keeps the collimated (infinity) image of the illuminated part of the reticle in focus with the dominant eye while the other eye views the entire field of view to acquire the target. In this both-eyes-open technique the brain superimposes the aiming reticle on the target. An added part of the technique is to shift focus after acquisition to the dominant eye/telescopic image for more accurate shooting. This overcomes the problem of centering or acquiring fast traversing targets common with all telescopic sights.
unquote
taken from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpGSKKgWWks

In the description above it is not emphasized clearly enough, that this shift of the eye dominating from the eye seeing 1:1 to the one with a magnified image as soon as its movement slows is apparently working automatically with more than 90% of population without further training. With binocular vision of non identical images the brain usually seems to select eye domination to the side where there is "more to see" , either due to higher magnification and/or less disturbance by perceived (due to magnification) movement.

or as video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpGSKKgWWks

Today there are plenty of sniper scopes with built in red dot, but mainly for twilight aiming, not for fast target acquisition. The Docter Point I only mentioned, as a potential modification of ordinary observation type of (monocular) scopes with straight axis eyepieces, usually not fitted with red dots, in order to enable them to be used with the Bindon method.

HW
 

jkingrph

Well-known member
I think a simpler way to describe what I am planning is to say that I am say that I will be mounting a small red dot with 1x magnification and very wide field of view, parallel to my large 20-60 x spotting scope that has a very narrow field of view and an angled eyepiece . I should be able to look through the red dot and get my spotting scope aligned on the object of my interest much quicker and easier, at least I hope so.

Since I will be adding what is a rifle sight to my scope mount, think of the spotting scope with a red dot sight added for quick target acquisition

Looking at the video's you show, I agree. I have been shooting probably 65+ years, and long ago learned to shoot open sights with both eyes open. I also have some rifles that recoil heavily equipped low power scopes of very long relief and shoot them with both eyes open, same principle there.
 
Last edited:

Hans Weigum

Well-known member
I think a simpler way to describe what I am planning is to say that I am say that I will be mounting a small red dot with 1x magnification and very wide field of view, parallel to my large 20-60 x spotting scope that has a very narrow field of view and an angled eyepiece . I should be able to look through the red dot and get my spotting scope aligned on the object of my interest much quicker and easier, at least I hope so.

Since I will be adding what is a rifle sight to my scope mount, think of the spotting scope with a red dot sight added for quick target acquisition...UNQUOTE
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I do not have such a narrow mind as the field of view of your spotting scope.
Thanks for repeating the explanation of your set up in case I still hadn't understood it by now.
I didn't comment on it only, because it seems so obvious, proven by similar already existing samples shown in this thread previously.

You dismiss my suggestion as not suitable. What better solution do you suggest, able also for the more demanding acquisition of fast moving targets with a handheld spotting scope, when you risk to loose the target when shifting aim from a separate located red dot to the eyepiece of magnifying optics?

HW
 

Hauksen

Forum member
Hi Hans,

What better solution do you suggest, able also for the more demanding acquisition of fast moving targets with a handheld spotting scope, when you risk to loose the target when shifting aim from a separate located red dot to the eyepiece of magnifying optics?

Ah, thanks - now I understand where you see the advantage of the Bindon concept.

In my experience, the shift to the eyepiece in the way you describe is not a problem at all. I have to admit that I did not expect it to be as easy as it turned out to be in practice, so I think you're asking an important question there, even if my answer is "no problem" :)

I used the rig shown in this post, detached from the tripod:

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3583399&postcount=1

I was able to reliably acquire snipes in full display flight right overhead, which is a fairly hard test in my opinion. A bit of lead was required to bridge the "blind moment" (presumably because I didn't keep up the full tracking speed during the switch), but acquisition was markedly easier with the red dot and the 13-50x angled scope than with the 8x42 binoculars and no red dot.

However, the design consideration for a red dot sight mounting that works well in such a situation is in fact that head/eye movement for the transition should be minimal. My unsightly test rig coincedentally was fairly good in that regard.

Regards,

Henning
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top