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Saltmarsh vs Nelson's Sparrow (Everglades National Park [Coastal Prairie Trail]) (1 Viewer)

lgonz1008

Well-known member
United States
Both of these sparrows winter in small numbers within this part of the park, I saw 3 separate birds yesterday and would like to confirm the IDs for each one as both would be potential lifers.

I think Bird 3 is Nelson's and the other 2 are Saltmarsh, but could be wrong. Any help is appreciated.
 

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  • Bird 3 (Nelson).JPG
    Bird 3 (Nelson).JPG
    3.6 MB · Views: 63
  • Bird 2.2 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    Bird 2.2 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    3.3 MB · Views: 62
  • Bird 2 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    Bird 2 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    3.3 MB · Views: 61
  • Bird 1.2 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    Bird 1.2 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    3.5 MB · Views: 55
  • Bird 1 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    Bird 1 (Saltmarsh).JPG
    3.2 MB · Views: 58
To my eye images 2 and 3 are the same bird (same positioning on shrub/tree), and both appear to show pp equal in length to the last overlying tertial, which if correct should point to Saltmarsh?

Don’t know if one can glean much from images 4/5?, however image 1 “might”suggest Nelson’s? as the overlying (last) tertial looks greater (longer), than the underlying pp.

Cheers
 
To my eye images 2 and 3 are the same bird (same positioning on shrub/tree), and both appear to show pp equal in length to the last overlying tertial, which if correct should point to Saltmarsh?

Don’t know if one can glean much from images 4/5?, however image 1 “might”suggest Nelson’s? as the overlying (last) tertial looks greater (longer), than the underlying pp.

Cheers
The birds in 2 and 3 being the same species, I can agree with, however, I know they were not the same individual. The habitat they were in was a dry saltmarsh where those green bushes were the only plant life. Plus both birds were up at the same time when I photographed them, about 20ft (6m) apart.

When you say 4 and 5, do you mean the ones labeled Bird 1 and Bird 1.2?
 
The birds in 2 and 3 being the same species, I can agree with, however, I know they were not the same individual. The habitat they were in was a dry saltmarsh where those green bushes were the only plant life. Plus both birds were up at the same time when I photographed them, about 20ft (6m) apart.

When you say 4 and 5, do you mean the ones labeled Bird 1 and Bird 1.2?
The last two images Igonz.

Cheers
 
These are tough. Where it can be seen, the bill size and color suggest Nelson’s to me. I am unfamiliar with primary projection - tertial ratio as noted by Ken above. I am not not sure of any of these, but I would not normally expect a Saltmarsh Sparrow bill to appear that small or silvery.
 
I think Ken is seeing the images in the same order I do. His 2 and 3 are those you labeled 2 and 2.2. His 4 and 5 are those you labeled 1 and 1.2
Niels
 
I think Ken is seeing the images in the same order I do. His 2 and 3 are those you labeled 2 and 2.2. His 4 and 5 are those you labeled 1 and 1.2
Niels
Got it, I also put the wrong photo for one of the Sparrow on the log, maybe it will help to view it here: https://ebird.org/checklist/S127087655

I went by the ID recommendation of my local birding community, which most seem to consider that bird as a clear Saltmarsh Sparrow. Any input is appreciated.
 
Got it, I also put the wrong photo for one of the Sparrow on the log, maybe it will help to view it here: https://ebird.org/checklist/S127087655

I went by the ID recommendation of my local birding community, which most seem to consider that bird as a clear Saltmarsh Sparrow. Any input is appreciated.
Nothing about this is "clear" in my opinion, and I would be hesitant to trust the basis of opinion from someone with that mentality, unless they were able to demonstrate superior knowledge on the topic. They may be correct, but this is not a case where being flippant displays much insight. The Saltmarsh Sparrow in this ebird checklist looks very similar to some of your birds. Although I stand by my above comment, I also contrarily believe that the orange face of your birds is a color that is better for Saltmarsh. Saltmarsh is usually on the orange side whereas Nelson's is closer to yellow. While it is rare that color is a better field mark than apparent bill length/shape, I think it actually is better to go by the color in these photos where the bill size/shape is a little difficult to assess. I think it is highly unlikely that Nelson's would appear that orange. As for the birds that we can only see their backs, I find it interesting that those are proposed as Nelson's. I don't feel strongly one way or the other about them, but usually Nelson's interior have bolder white back braces than shown here. This would be so much easier with good views of their front sides. These photos are a great exercise and challenge. I have already learned of something new from Ken in this thread, although I am struggling to see what he is talking about in these photos.
 
Nothing about this is "clear" in my opinion, and I have already learned of something new from Ken in this thread, although I am struggling to see what he is talking about in these photos.

Tom hi,

my comments regarding the pp to tertial ratios were questions, not statements of fact!
They were prompted by my cross referencing in Sibley, as to how accurately the illustrations are regarding the lengths of the relevant differences as portrayed in “The Sibley Guide to Birds” (4th printing 2001).
Agreed, extremely difficult to give an accurate ID based on the images provided.

Cheers

Ken
 
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