same quest, new question: which to pick? 2nd hand 7dm2 + EF 100-400 mk2 OR R7 + EF 100-400 mk1 (2 Viewers)

[HouseCrow]

I posted about my quest earlier this week and did get one reply... This question is maybe better for you all.
Up until this july I was rather pleased with my 7Dm2 and Sigma 100-400 lens. They were the best I could do a few years ago. It was a huge step up from my trusty superzoom Sony hx400v but then I dropped them and they were declared total loss.

Samples of my photo-aided records are here on inaturalist (this period mostly with the above mentioned Canon+Sigma combo

Observations (pardon the unedited, not very attractive shots of birds mostly, they often look grey and out of focus, but the species is more important then a good photo for me usually)


Onwards to a new set now then.
I have a budget of a little over 2000 for the package. I am eager to get to know easier video filming with the R7 (evf!). I 'need' GPS, want to film andd photo both posing dragonflies (clean shots, near macro preferably), butterflies and (flying) birds... I am rather more a hiker, birder and insect watcher than a proper photographer.

Now it comes down to this choice.
Lens prevalence
Do I invest some money in a good 2nd hand lens that will last me a decade more (EF 100-400 mark ii) and combine it with a trusty 2nd hand 7d mark ii and leave filming through evf for later and profit from experience with familiar gear...
OR
Camera prevalence
do I invest in the more modern camera (Canon R7) for better focusing, more pixels, and snappy videoing...(with lackluster GPS connection) and combine that with a trusty but old EF
100-400 mark I.

Both options end up being slightly over the 2000 euro budget (with drop/water-insurance and stuff added for the most expensive of the two elements)

What would you say?

hope to hear from you,

cheers,
Gerben

Below a few samples of what I think are the prettier shots I have made over these last years with the canon+sigma

https://flic.kr/p/2mtGZnE

https://flic.kr/p/2iTcrMA

https://flic.kr/p/2kgapoN

https://flic.kr/p/2kmwRi4

https://flic.kr/p/2kHKkqG

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

Ok, this is just my personal opinion based on my style of photography: 95% of my pictures are flying raptors at large distances (500 m to 5 km).

At this moment I don't want to change my 7DII with 100 - 400 M2 for the mirrorless bodies. It's the EVF, I don't want a sensor to decide to leave out these 2 pixels that are my very rare Golden Eagle. Besides I need a short startup time and fast autofocus for suddenly appearing Hobbies for instance. And last but not least, it's a superb combination, camera and lens are made for each other.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

I used my 7D II from the first day of release in October 2014, when it replaced the Mk1 I'd used until then, taking countless shots of birds. From the day my R5 arrived in December 2020, I've never once felt the need to pick up my 7D II. It has stayed on the shelf as a faithful friend that has fired its last shot.

The mirrorless cameras are light years ahead in performance.

When my R7 arrived in August 2022, my R5 was retired from bird work because of the extra 'reach' of the crop body. My R5 use continued for all other uses, however, because it is such a great camera. Like TheBlackGrouse I like to photograph flying raptors, but at much closer distances than his 500m, especially on migration, both northbound and southbound at the Strait of Gibraltar, when they can come at you in groups only 20 -50m away. With the 7D II I got some good images, but getting that focus point to find a honey buzzard that was coming towards me on an almost gale force wind (very common there), and more importantly to lock onto it long enough for the shutter button to fire before the bird bounced out of the frame led to a very small proportion of keepers.

With the mirrorless R5 and the crop body R7 that situation is reversed with many, many more potential keepers than duds. I say 'potential', because I'm now in the happy situation of binning perfectly useable shots from a larger burst because a whole burst will be in focus, because the eye detection finds the bird as long as it's in the frame and importantly, holds it, and there's no longer the worry about holding a central spot (or zone) over a bouncing bird, even against difficult backgrounds. It also finds distant birds too, in case I want one for ID purposes.

Check out some of my posts in the 'R7 for bird Photography and Birds in Flight' thread for examples.

R7 for bird photography and birds in flight

Hi all, I am looking at upgrading to the R7 late this year or when I turn 18 (1 year and 2 months) and I am aware of some of the issues, such as rolling shutter. I really enjoy shooting birds in flight, and I'm aware that rolling shutter occurs frequently in electronic mode when shooting fast...

www.birdforum.net

R7 or 7D II? It's no contest.

Some R7 shots here from the autumn migration 2023 (taken using the RF 100-500).

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Some R7 shots from closer to home this summer.

 

[HouseCrow]

Thanks for your replies!

I started this thread half expecting nobody would reply. At the moment I am waiting for a new R7 to arrive at my door. However, the moment I ordered it,
doubt crept in yet again. The new price was quite a bit over budget so there is little room left for a lens. The 100-400 m2 is my dream lens for now...preferably combined with an r7-type camera....but I need to find an alternative for the now and here.

@blackgrouse
I missed evf on my 7dm2 as using the screen to film was hopeless to me. However I mainly shoot photos. And yes, a
bad evf is annoying when trying to find a few pixels that represent distant birds, true... I did manage more or less with my slow Sigma 100-400 and 7dm2... sometimes....and somehow I think even better with my Sony hx400v superzoom.

A side note warning: where I imply photos are not good, what I really mean is that I (who needs a photocourse badly) could not get decent shots out of the camera or lens.

A day later:
I received a package this afternoon with a good, even excellent, but also flawed new camera (R7), yet hardly any financial room for a lens.
I have not opened the box yet, I want to be able to fully return the set without touching it, if I decide to go a different route.,,which as I said before I was inclined to do right after buying the camera online yesterday.

Most expensive option:
new R7+ FR 100-500
new R7 + used EF 100-400 m2
used 7Dm2 + used EF 100-400 m2

Cheapest option
used 7Dm2 + used Sigma100-400
used 7Dm2 + used 100-400 m1
used R7 + used Sigma100-400
used R7 + used 100-400 m1

preferred option now: used


My wish list in randomish order
-price 1500-2300 euros (camera+lens)
-GPS usability
-evf preferably
-usable in darker Dutch conditions as well as in bright sunlight for insects.
preferably also at least decent at shooting skuas and petrels in stormy conditions
-less than 1m minimum focus distance a plus
-clean image rather than good but pixeled images (low iso)

my profile sort of: Camera used weekly for birds, dragonflies, butterflies. I usually travel by public transport and on foot. All weather hiker, but not keen on shooting in rain, unless I am hiding behind a wall or something.
Also a main target is my planned 6 week part family, part nature trip to Japan next spring. A light camera would be nice. Good weather can be expected but the odd downpoor should not hinder the fun (either in the hills or on a bumpy ferry ride to a bird island0

I could go and pick up a 100400m1 to go with the R7, it is still a bit expensive for an old lens and is it really as fun to shoot with as is suggested in one or two YT videos? It sounds like an interesting project to combine it with the R7, but also a bit tricky... can the old lens keep up better than a sigma?

I could also choose the Sigma 100-400 again, but I had a little trouble shooting it under bad conditions (Inaturalist 8 March 2020 Tokyo ferry) (grey stormy weather on a long distance ferry in Japan and does it work with the R7 well enough? There is little evidence of that to be found online.

In both cases after a few years, I would want a lens upgrade to 100400m2 or rf100500

the above criteria all but one seem to scream for 7dm2+100400m2...don't they?
Maybe I should get a decent set of those for 1900 Euros including a little all risk-insurance for the lens at one of the online stores.
Then I do have a good lens whenever the mirrorless camera options get within reach.
In the meantime I would have to learn to film short videos of insects and distant birds with only the screen as viewfinder. My Sony hx400v is getting old and is not up for it anymore I fear:

I have still not decided, but now the time is ticking, and a camera waiting to be returned or used.

BTW. I was already mouth watering over your photos Mr Wobbler! not only for the gear, the area seems great to me too to get familiar with (Japan first love, Spain second)
The combination of 100400m2 and R7 is well above my budget, let alone the upgrade to 100500.

cheers,
pardon the rambling style
Gerben

 

[birdboybowley]

Just a quick look online and I've found new r7 for £819 from Cotswold Cameras and a used 100-400mkii from Wex for £997, well.under budget. Personally wouldn't bother with a mki lens on the r7

 

[HouseCrow]

Thanks but i meant 2000 euros as a max, your combination makes 2200 euros...acceptable yet it it lacks the adapter and some kind of insurance i would like to have for the lens.

Mpb has 7dm2 with 100400m2 for 1800 euros, excl insurance plan. That sounds doable.

Cheers
Gerben

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

Another thing, it makes a lot of difference if you have the 7DII and 100 -400 Mk2, are very satisfied with the combination and start thinking about switching, like me. Or if you have the 7DII and want to get a better lens and/or a better camera

In your case I simply would not buy the EF 100 - 400 Mk1. And ask yourself: is my current camera underperforming or the lens? [No offense of course but we need to compare things]

Probably it's the lens, then you know what to do, go for the 100 - 400 Mk2

On the other hand, it is tempting to buy a much newer camera, especially since mirrorless is the future.

 

[HouseCrow]

It is me first, then the lens, then the camera, I reckon. A well-experienced user would have made loads of better shots no doubt.
But the Sigma was known to be a bit slow and a tad soft under more difficult circumstances.. like most of my Japan trip in March 2020.

The sweet Sony Superzoom I am left with now simply can't do what I need, although having it around for evidence videos can be helpful.
So I need a replacement for the now dead dslr camera and lens.
I am not a photographer obviously, but it is sometimes nice to play around with things and other times 'necessary' to take photos to be able to confirm an ID .

@TheBlackGrouse That is exactly the dilemma you are describing: I would love that 100400mk2 but then I also would like to be able to shoot decent videos through the viewfinder...with the same goal; not for their aesthetics but for identification purposes or fun..or both.
I think buying a good 2nd hand lens (up from 1600 euros at mpb) and a cheaper 7dm2 (400 plus) now will push me to work on my photo and video skills with the 7dm2 while at the same time creating the basis for an upgrade in a few years to a R7 mark 2 with that same lens...provided I don't fall into a wet ditch again.

cheers
Gerben

 

[Ribbon]

Great thread, I recognize a lot of the things wrote here.

I use the 7dmk2/EF100-400mk2 combo for a while now while my girlfriend uses her R7 with my 'good old' EF 400 5.6. It's hard not to be jealous when she (as a starting birder) very easily gets good focussed shots when I keep on struggling with distance etc.

To cut things short; it's not the question if, but when I will be switching to a mirrorless/RF combo.

Knowing that, I'm happy with the combo I use now while saving up for a new lens and body.

So for me it works to be content with the things I own now and invest in something good when the time comes. Compromising usually doesn't work for me...

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

It is me first, then the lens, then the camera, I reckon. A well-experienced user would have made loads of better shots no doubt.
But the Sigma was known to be a bit slow and a tad soft under more difficult circumstances.. like most of my Japan trip in March 2020.

The sweet Sony Superzoom I am left with now simply can't do what I need, although having it around for evidence videos can be helpful.
So I need a replacement for the now dead dslr camera and lens.
I am not a photographer obviously, but it is sometimes nice to play around with things and other times 'necessary' to take photos to be able to confirm an ID .

@TheBlackGrouse That is exactly the dilemma you are describing: I would love that 100400mk2 but then I also would like to be able to shoot decent videos through the viewfinder...with the same goal; not for their aesthetics but for identification purposes or fun..or both.
I think buying a good 2nd hand lens (up from 1600 euros at mpb) and a cheaper 7dm2 (400 plus) now will push me to work on my photo and video skills with the 7dm2 while at the same time creating the basis for an upgrade in a few years to a R7 mark 2 with that same lens...provided I don't fall into a wet ditch again.

cheers
Gerben

My fault, I thought that the Sony was total loss

When buying used equipment it may be possible with your budget, it depends on the country though.

What I've learned with the 7DII, if you have the autofocus settings right, use back button focus, things like that, it outperforms the mirrorless cameras when birds are too fare away for automatic or eye-detection. And that's my problem with raptors here. As always with new systems, a newer EVF will be better and soon mirrorless will rule the world. Until then, I'm really happy with my 7DII. Just expose to the right whenever you can ...

 

[HouseCrow]

thanks all for the comments, it went quickly after this; yesterday I received a new second hand 7dm2, which looks rather near brand new. Also yesterday while slowly dismissing M P B as option, I encountered a rather bargain sale of a 2nd hand 100-400 m2 in our local (but also operating nation wide) camera store. I am about to pick that up in an hour orso. First chance to try them out is tomorrow: a woodland in Drenthe with hopefully some nice dragonflies and who knows Black Woodpecker or similar.

cheers and have a good weekend.
Gerben

 

[Ribbon]

Great rugged combo. Have a lot of fun with it.

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

thanks all for the comments, it went quickly after this; yesterday I received a new second hand 7dm2, which looks rather near brand new. Also yesterday while slowly dismissing M P B as option, I encountered a rather bargain sale of a 2nd hand 100-400 m2 in our local (but also operating nation wide) camera store. I am about to pick that up in an hour orso. First chance to try them out is tomorrow: a woodland in Drenthe with hopefully some nice dragonflies and who knows Black Woodpecker or similar.

cheers and have a good weekend.
Gerben

Hey, woodland in Drenthe, didn't know you live in the Netherlands. That's a good place to start with your new equipment.

You can't go wrong with these two!

 

[HouseCrow]

Yes, Drenthe is my main area (Drentse Aa and Onlanden mostly)

True, I hope to find some good stuff...and relearn working with 7dm2*... It is weird how easy it is to forget even the basics after only 3 months without that camera
* and learn lots more, I never really did learn how to use more than literally a few options. Back button focus is still a new thing to me.

Will work on it, but maybe not today.

cheers
Gerben

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

Just trying to help

There are lots of manuals for the 7DII settings, but most of them are quite complicated. Many settings give very slight improvements, better skip them for now and work on the important ones.

The 7DII has great AF but when working with the 100-400 II the zones are too slow for birds other than herons, storks, eagles etc.

Simply follow the bird by moving the camera, with your focus point in the center. Point expansion works very well and gives you some headroom.

For birds in flight this combination is the best for me:

AI Servo with High Speed Continuous

• Back button focus
• Point-expansion (9 points)
• AF Case 2

These are my settings for Case 2 after years of trial and error. When a Goshawk flies behind bushes for a short while, the AF stays on target. Some prefer a higher setting for AF pt auto switching.

 

[HouseCrow]

I played around a bit on my family trip to Texel this week, no chance to change settings, so i did it the old way again...will do my best to make custom settings for flying birds, insects in sun and birds in drab weather, that should cover most of my outings for now.
Changing light intake according to cloudiness and adjusting iso from 1600 to 400 for the Rosy Starling did work for now..the better lens worked out too it seems

Will have to check results though...
Cheers
G
Thanks for the setup of C2 ; )

 

[Richard G]

I'm still using the 7D2 along with a (new to me) 100-400 mk2, and I'm really liking this combination. I can't justify moving to the R7 for the sake of it just yet, and probably won't until my 7D2 takes it's last frame.

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

I'm still using the 7D2 along with a (new to me) 100-400 mk2, and I'm really liking this combination. I can't justify moving to the R7 for the sake of it just yet, and probably won't until my 7D2 takes it's last frame.

Me too!

And even then, I'm thinking about a 5DMkIV. Because the 90D is not a real replacement and you can't buy new 7DII cameras anymore. Maybe, there is a good used one somewhere. In the meantime I invest my money in binoculars, already upgraded my spotting scope this year