Scope advice (2 Viewers)

[Harpyeagle]

Hi, My name's Paul, I'm new to this forum.
I have a question regarding scopes. Looking for some advice really.
In my local camera shop, there's a Hawke Vantage 20-60x60. It's brand new and the cost is £190.
However, on ebay, someone is selling a used Hawke Endurance ED 20-6-x85, and that is twice the price.
If I don't plan to do much birding during dusk and dawn, then is the Vantage a reasonably good scope, as a first step ?

Is the 2nd-hand Endurance a good price? And if so, is the only difference the lens diameter?

Initially I was thinking I'd need to spend £500 - £600 to get a half decent scope, but maybe not?

I've been mad keen on birds ever since I met Tony Soper 40 years ago, at an RSPB event in Devon! But this is my first proper foray into getting some proper equipment..

Look forward to exploring the forum and meeting you all

 

[gr8fuldoug]

The most expensive thing is to buy and then sell to upgrade. The Endurance ED is a far superior scope to the Vantage

 

[Grando]

Welcome to the forum, Paul. I don't really have any experience of Hawke scopes, but I'm sure someone else who has will be along to answer. The other thing that a larger aperture scope tends to helps with is using it at the higher magnifications, too. But you're right that in decent lighting conditions you probably wouldn't notice too much difference between the two scopes, certainly if using them at the lower mags (which is where, I imagine, in a cheaper scope, the sweet spot will be).

Out of interest, WEX, who are a good online retailer (with an excellent returns policy) have the same scope on sale for £169, which might be worth a look.

I would say, though, that even though the term ED is a bit spurious, manufacturer's better quality glass does, as the previous poster state, tend to make a noticeable difference in view quality. And Hawke's higher-ranged Endurance line does retail new for around £700. Saying that, if you're looking at 2nd-hand then there's a whole world of excellent scopes available out there...

 

[4John]

Hi, My name's Paul, I'm new to this forum.
I have a question regarding scopes. Looking for some advice really.
In my local camera shop, there's a Hawke Vantage 20-60x60. It's brand new and the cost is £190.
However, on ebay, someone is selling a used Hawke Endurance ED 20-6-x85, and that is twice the price.
If I don't plan to do much birding during dusk and dawn, then is the Vantage a reasonably good scope, as a first step ?

Is the 2nd-hand Endurance a good price? And if so, is the only difference the lens diameter?

Initially I was thinking I'd need to spend £500 - £600 to get a half decent scope, but maybe not?

I've been mad keen on birds ever since I met Tony Soper 40 years ago, at an RSPB event in Devon! But this is my first proper foray into getting some proper equipment..

Look forward to exploring the forum and meeting you all

Everyone's price-performance ratio or "bang for your buck" is different so it's hard to say what's reasonable for you. Statements like "The Endurance ED is a far superior scope to the Vantage" need to be verified by you with your eyes and your budget.

I recommend that you go to a Field Day and have a look for yourself at the range of scopes available. In Focus do them all over the UK :

Field Sales Events Calendar | In Focus

You can then try out 60mm and 85mm objective lens scopes in your price range and decide for yourself what's "half decent".

 

[Harpyeagle]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your help.

 

[tenex]

Welcome to Birdforum! I agree with Doug that ultimately buying something that will satisfy you for a long time is best, although determining that is up to you, so try some scopes at a store/event as suggested above. A full-sized scope will do better at high magnification (long distance) as well as in low light, but the choice between 60-65 and 80-85mm is largely about how much you're willing to carry and how far.

 

[Harpyeagle]

Welcome to Birdforum! I agree with Doug that ultimately buying something that will satisfy you for a long time is best, although determining that is up to you, so try some scopes at a store/event as suggested above. A full-sized scope will do better at high magnification (long distance) as well as in low light, but the choice between 60-65 and 80-85mm is largely about how much you're willing to carry and how far.

Thanks @tenex

 

[4John]

Harpyeagle,

Some people are able to buy once, in which case I agree that buying something that will satisfy you in the long term is best. However, not everyone is like that. If you have never owned a scope before you may buy a scope you think will satisfy you in the long term only to find after a while there are things you don't like about it. Unfortunately you can only find out some of what you like and don't like about scopes by using one for a while. I started out with a Swarovski STS80 on the basis of buy once and buy the biggest and the best. After five years I realised it was too heavy and cumbersome for me and the sort of birding I liked and I bought a Nikon ED50, which has been my main scope now for over 10 years. This is why some people on this forum recommend buying a second hand scope as your first scope so you can find out what you like and don't like at a more affordable price. However, you may be able to quickly find out some things you like and don't like by playing around with them at a field day.

 

[oklolmc]

The most expensive thing is to buy and then sell to upgrade. The Endurance ED is a far superior scope to the Vantage

Hello @gr8fuldoug,
I am also looking to buy my first spotting scope. I currently own a pair of Nikon Prostaff P7 10x42 Binoculars and they just aren't cutting it for me.
I am looking to spend no more than around 1200€ on the scope + eyepiece.
I regularly want to identify (smaller) birds at 800+ yards. Weight is not a great concern of mine, as I am planning on transporting my scope setup on my bike pannier pack.
You seem to be an advocate for the Hawke Endurance ED 25-75x85, which I could get here in Europe for 770€ shipped.
I could also get a Kowa TSN-663M Prominar without an eyepiece for 790€, with the fixed 30-mag eyepiece being another 260€.
To the best of my knowledge, the glass on the Kowa is significantly better, but the 20-60 eyepiece results in a dim picture at higher magnifications and I fear that the fixed 30x might not be enough in scenarios where I want the highest possible resolution for making out all the details while identifying a far-away bird. But then the higher light transmission of the Kowa might compensate for the lack in lens diameter and make it as bright as the Hawke.
Could you comment on which of these scopes would suit my needs better or if there are any options you would add to my list?
Thanks

 

[Binastro]

To see all the details on a small bird at 800 yards plus you probably need a 100mm ED or 120mm ED astro refractor and 100x or more.
They aren't waterproof and need a sturdy altazimuth mount.

It also depends how good your eyesight is.

Also good atmospheric Seeing conditions.

100mm ED tube and optics about £1000.
120mm ED tube and optics about £1500.

Plus mount.

Secondhand deals are often available at maybe 60% of new, but one has to know how to test the scope.

I doubt that a normal spotting scope at 75x will show you the detail you require unless an extremely good sample and exceptional eyesight.

My custom 150mm Maksutov or custom 120mm refractor would probably show detail on small birds at 800 plus yards.
But the mounts were heavy and I doubt a bicycle would support the weight and bulk.
100x on the Maksutov, 150x on the refractor in very steady Seeing.
I did actually make such observations.

Regards,
B.

 

[oklolmc]

To see all the details on a small bird at 800 yards plus you probably need a 100mm ED or 120mm ED astro refractor and 100x or more.
They aren't waterproof and need a sturdy altazimuth mount.

It also depends how good your eyesight is.

Also good atmospheric Seeing conditions.

Regards,
B.

Thanks for your input.
To clarify

To see all the details on a small bird at 800 yards plus you probably need a 100mm ED or 120mm ED astro refractor and 100x or more.
They aren't waterproof and need a sturdy altazimuth mount.

It also depends how good your eyesight is.

Also good atmospheric Seeing conditions.

100mm ED tube and optics about £1000.
120mm ED tube and optics about £1500.

Plus mount.

Secondhand deals are often available at maybe 60% of new, but one has to know how to test the scope.

I doubt that a normal spotting scope at 75x will show you the detail you require unless an extremely good sample and exceptional eyesight.

My custom 150mm Maksutov or custom 120mm refractor would probably show detail on small birds at 800 plus yards.
But the mounts were heavy and I doubt a bicycle would support the weight and bulk.
100x on the Maksutov, 150x on the refractor in very steady Seeing.
I did actually make such observations.

Regards,
B.

Thanks for your input.
In hindsight, small birds at 800 yards is too much to ask from a regular spotting scope.
Viewing every detail of a plover at 800 yards is not my goal. However, ID'ing geese and perched raptors in favourable conditions at that distance is something I'd like to achieve - most people I see run a Swaro.

 

[oklolmc]

To ask a more precise question:
Do the glass quality benefits of the Kowa TSN-663M outweigh the disadvantage of the smaller lens diameter when compared to a lesser quality 85mm scope like the Hawke Endurance ED 25-75x85 / Vortex Razor / Athlon Ares, specifically in the application of identifying medium-large sized birds at 700+ yards and ducks / gulls at 500+ yards in favourable lighting conditions?
I do have slight astigmatiasm and short-sightedness, not enough for me to wear glasses / contacts, I think this would make me appreciate the higher magnification more than the higher resolution and sharpness?
Thanks

 

[Binastro]

Sometimes.

The thing is to buy a very fine example of the lower priced scope, by star testing etc.
Then I would say the 85mm scope would normally be better and if possible sometimes go above 75x if your eyes are capable of doing this.

Regards,
B.

 

[oklolmc]

Thanks, I'll look into that option.

I've come to notice that the Hawke Endurance ED 25-75x85 looks practically identical to a much cheaper Svbony SV406P, with the Hawke being more than twice as expensive (see images). The shape, focus knob, lens hood and even the stay-on cover all look the same, the only differences seem to be the eyepiece being a 20-60 instead of 25-75 and the objective lens diameter being 80mm instead of 85.
Is it possible that these are the exact same scopes internally, with only the branding and eyepieces being different?

I've also considered increasing my budget and picking up a new Nikon Monarch 82ED for 1500€ without an eyepiece. Can anyone comment on the quality differences between this combo and other scopes considering my purpose (long-range birding) and what eyepiece would suit my needs best.
Thanks for all the replies

 

[Hermann]

I've also considered increasing my budget and picking up a new Nikon Monarch 82ED for 1500€ without an eyepiece. Can anyone comment on the quality differences between this combo and other scopes considering my purpose (long-range birding) and what eyepiece would suit my needs best.

There is an excellent review by Henry Link of the Monarch on this forum. There are actually quite a few posts other Monarch. Use the forum search!

In short: I reckon the Monarch will run circles around the Svbony and the Hawke.

Hermann

 

[Ruff-Leg]

Monarch 82ED, a Perfect Ten

I recently spent a pleasant few hours evaluating a scope that exceeded my expectations in nearly every way. The Nikon Monarch 82ED has been around for over 2 years now, but it doesn’t seem to have made much of an impression in the market or been much reviewed or discussed in optics forums. A...

www.birdforum.net

You should certainly give the Monarch 82 serious consideration.