South Thailand falcon help please (1 Viewer)

[bhutjoe]

The attached photos were taken in Hat Yai Thailand on October 11 at about 2 pm on a rainy day. The two birds flew in together and stayed as long as I was there, about an hour. They may still be there on top of comms tower.

I think it is falco peregrinus ernesti given the full black sides of the head, but that is, I believe, most unusual this far south. I considered Oriental Hobby but I do not think they have the baring on the breast colour like these do.

I would appreciate confirmation or correction. Also any comments about wheher a male and female or adult and juv appreciated.
Thank you
Steve

 

[Deb Burhinus]

It looks to be one of the Asian sub-species of Peregrine - not sure which though I would have to check.

This looks to be the closest but I’m not sure at all because I don’t know the range of various subsp
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=180791&Bird_ID=1056&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=
or
http://orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?Bird_Image_ID=159994&Bird_ID=1056&Bird_Family_ID=&Location=

 

[Andy Adcock]

Looking at Ferguson-Lees 'Raptors of the World', of the two birds together, I'd say the lowest is an adult male ernesti, streaking on the other bird, suggests a young bird?

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Looking at Ferguson-Lees 'Raptors of the World', of the two birds together, I'd say the lowest is an adult male ernesti, streaking on the other bird, suggests a young bird?

That was my feeling Andy (see first link) but I couldn’t find a map that included Thailand for the breeding range of this subsp.

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Just realised the OP has mentioned Peregrine and the subsp in his post - I didnt read the post properly obviously - (the second link I posted is a peregrinator I think)

 

[tconzemi]

just checked 'Peregrine Falcons of the World' by White et al.
Southern Thailand is the integration zone from Black Shaheen (F.p.perigrinator) into Ernest's Peregrine (F.p.ernesti), Black Shaheen being itself extremely variable through its range

 

[Deb Burhinus]

X post with Tom! It certainly helps to have reference books for these ID threads !

 

[bhutjoe]

Hi thanks for the comments. I have been using Robson's book on Thai birds and it seems, if I am reading it correctly speculates if south thai birds are a different taxon. I do not know if there have been updates on this since he published the version I have in 2008.

 

[Deb Burhinus]

Hi thanks for the comments. I have been using Robson's book on Thai birds and it seems, if I am reading it correctly speculates if south thai birds are a different taxon. I do not know if there have been updates on this since he published the version I have in 2008.

from what I have managed to ascertain, South Thai falls within the contact zone of both sub sp. Given the nature of Peregrine races globally, it’s possible South Thai represents an intergrade/clinal mix of both ernisti and perigrinator (that’s assuming these aren’t birds on migration) and we are looking at either or a mix of both!

 

[bhutjoe]

Thank you Deb for that and for the link to the photos. I did notice that the birds in the photos seemed to have quite reddish breasts while the ones I saw had white with barring. So a variation as was mentioned.
thank you all for your assistance. At least I got the peregrine part correct
steve

 

[Andy Adcock]

Thank you Deb for that and for the link to the photos. I did notice that the birds in the photos seemed to have quite reddish breasts while the ones I saw had white with barring. So a variation as was mentioned.
thank you all for your assistance. At least I got the peregrine part correct
steve

I first saw ernesti in Sulawesi and from a distance, it looked black and white?

I attach a bird from Burma which I concluded was a Shaheen?

 

[bhutjoe]

Great shot. Thanks Andy, have to change my e-bird note.
thanks everyone, your very informative comments very much appreciated
steve

 

[James Eaton]

The attached photos were taken in Hat Yai Thailand on October 11 at about 2 pm on a rainy day. The two birds flew in together and stayed as long as I was there, about an hour. They may still be there on top of comms tower.

I think it is falco peregrinus ernesti given the full black sides of the head, but that is, I believe, most unusual this far south. I considered Oriental Hobby but I do not think they have the baring on the breast colour like these do.

I would appreciate confirmation or correction. Also any comments about wheher a male and female or adult and juv appreciated.
Thank you
Steve

There are two good ways separate Oriental Hobby from Peregrine - if immature, OH has spots, not streaks or bars on the underparts. Structurally look at the wing projection - just beyond the tail in OH, and just short in Peregrine.

Regarding ernesti underpart colouration - there is much variation within the taxon. Some impressively orange, others lacking the orange but can be incredibly intensively barred.

James

 

[bhutjoe]

Hi James, thank you for your helpful comment. Much appreciated.
steve

 

[Patudo]

Most certainly a peregrine, very similar to birds I've observed in Singapore, and not one of the northern migratory subspecies. I need to note that I've never seen the north-eastern form of F. p. peregrinator myself (there are apparently three broad types found in south India/Sri Lanka, north to north-west India and Pakistan, and Burma to southern China respectively) - but the peregrines found in peninsular Malaysia, just a stone's throw from Hat Yai, correspond to the characteristics of ernesti - although apparently with more rufous colouration on their breast than birds found further east in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea. The female of the pair I'm most familiar with shows much more rufous on the breast than the male.

The upper bird in the photo of the two birds together is definitely a juvenile. The adult looks like a female to me, but I'm not 100% sure of the juvenile. It looks a little smaller, but the male of the pair I've watched is a lot smaller and distinctly slimmer than the female.

I'm wondering whether the juvenile fledged this year or is a second calendar year bird that hasn't fully moulted out. Did you see any behaviour that might indicate it was recently fledged (ie. food begging/screaming)?

 

[bhutjoe]

Hi Patudo, thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, there was no "behaviour" really by either bird. Indeed, they seemed to ignore each other for the hour I was there. For the most part - 90% at least of the time - the top bird faced away from me and the bottom bird was facing me. Once in a while it would move its head around. They never seemed to interact at all.
Often large-billed crows will stop by that tower but this is the first time since I have been here as of March that I have seen falcons. I do have other photos but they look much like the 4 I showed; the birds really did not move much.

 

[bhutjoe]

couple more photos

Here are a couple more pics that show a bit more of the breast.
steve

 

[nebli]

these falcons are typical falco peregrinus ernesti a mother and fledging

 

[Deb Burhinus]

these falcons are typical falco peregrinus ernesti a mother and fledging

On what basis do you say ‘typical’?

See for example post #6 and especially James’ post #13

(and why resurrect a settled ID thread to say so?)

 

[nebli]

On what basis do you say ‘typical’?

See for example post #6 and especially James’ post #13

(and why resurrect a settled ID thread to say so?)

sorry for the delay in answering you I have seen similar birds in sulawezi as well as I found a picture of the same bird in the oriental nusa tenggara island close to timor , as you can see this is a very typical pattern of ernesti that can be found also in the phillipine archipelago , there si also a pale version , that is the throat being paler but the dense barring is quite typical which differs greatly from peregrinator , those can be found in northern thailand and their pattern are quite distinctive
regards from belgium