not that simple!
it may be a PR stunt, but might be one that has considerable knock-on benefits to other wildlife by raising interest among non-wildlife enthusiasts and encouraging more habitat protection.
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Suffolk Sea Eagles? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sy V
- Start date
not that simple!
it may be a PR stunt, but might be one that has considerable knock-on benefits to other wildlife by raising interest among non-wildlife enthusiasts and encouraging more habitat protection.
This thread has only highlighted the lack of evidence that Sea Eagles ever bred in East Anglia. For some to say logic suggests that they did is a pure fantasy we could say logic suggests in the last ice age arctic geese such as brent may have bred here . maybe they did , but we just do not know.
So lets be clear about this any sea eagles in East Anglia would be feral Introduced birds. And in ecological theory the negative risks of introducing non native breeding species are very high and only justified in extreme cases where a species is threatened with extinction and in need of a protected habitat outside its normal range.
But perhaps just as important a subject that’s not been fully discussed is the impact wind farms are likely to have on the birds. In Norway local extinctions have been caused by new wind farms on the coast. There plans afoot for an extensive network of wind farms off shore . coastal and exposed areas inland. What is the point in spending huge sums of money to introduce non native breeding species only for them to be at very high risk of being killed by the turbine blades.
So lets be clear about this any sea eagles in East Anglia would be feral Introduced birds. And in ecological theory the negative risks of introducing non native breeding species are very high and only justified in extreme cases where a species is threatened with extinction and in need of a protected habitat outside its normal range.
But perhaps just as important a subject that’s not been fully discussed is the impact wind farms are likely to have on the birds. In Norway local extinctions have been caused by new wind farms on the coast. There plans afoot for an extensive network of wind farms off shore . coastal and exposed areas inland. What is the point in spending huge sums of money to introduce non native breeding species only for them to be at very high risk of being killed by the turbine blades.
RobLucking
Well-known member
I suppose it depends on what geographical scale you work at. If you take a very narrow Norfolk or Suffolk perspective, I suppose you could argue that is an introduction. If you take a broader national scale (ie England) it is without a doubt a re-introduction. I personally don't get hung up on whether there is concrete evidence of WTEs having nested in Norfolk or Suffolk during the past couple of centuries and instead look at things from an ecological perspective. We now know from various European studies that WTEs achieve higher population densities and enjoy greater breeding productivity in lowland habitats compared to those in upland habitats. Therefore if we're serious about re-establishing WTEs as an English breeding species, it makes sense that we release them in the most suitable habitat, such as the extensive lowland coastal wetland habitats we have in East Anglia.
With respect to impacts of windfarms on WTEs, my understanding is that the Smola windfarm - the one that has been responsible for the a high number of WTE deaths in Norway - is an onshore windfarm consisting of 68 turbines in the middle of what used to be one of the highest densities of WTEs in Norway. I don't think that the offshore windfarms proposed off Norfolk would have a big impact on a re-introduced WTE population although other species could be at risk, for example foraging sandwich terns and other seabirds. Onshore windfarms, of which there are some in the pipeline, would be a bigger risk.
Rob
With respect to impacts of windfarms on WTEs, my understanding is that the Smola windfarm - the one that has been responsible for the a high number of WTE deaths in Norway - is an onshore windfarm consisting of 68 turbines in the middle of what used to be one of the highest densities of WTEs in Norway. I don't think that the offshore windfarms proposed off Norfolk would have a big impact on a re-introduced WTE population although other species could be at risk, for example foraging sandwich terns and other seabirds. Onshore windfarms, of which there are some in the pipeline, would be a bigger risk.
Rob
An introduced bird is a bird that is released into a habitat where it has not been proved to occur narrow or not. To say " If you take a broader national scale (ie England) it is without a doubt a re-introduction " one could argue that many European birds that breed just across the North Sea and Channel have the right to be introduced as they live in a very similar biotope to East Anglia. From an ecological terms to talk of National boundaries does not make sense as Western , Upland Northern England and Wales ecosystems have little in common with East Anglian ecosystems , in terms of landscape, land usage or key species.
Sea eagled probably would thrive in East Anglia , but the major risks to a number of existing conservation projects and risks seriously upsetting the land users of the area. One of my major concerns is at the moment shooting interests are not a serious threat to raptors in the area. yes the odd bird does get killed , but if it was a problem marsh harriers and buzzards would not had the huge population increases they have had . The introduction of such a large predator who doubtless not ignore the thousands of reared game birds in East Anglia may well be the straw that breaks the camels back. Is it really worth taking that risk.
As for wind farms , I have conections in the industry and long term there plans for large numbers of turbines in a belt between the sea and the Broads that would pose a big risk to the eagles. Before you say it " the eagles are being released in Suffolk " . Norfolk is but a very short distance away and I doubt the birds would respect the county boundary. I could never understand why is not ok to release them in Norfolk and yet it is in Suffolk.
I have had great experiences with sea eagles in Norfolk and will never forget one back in 1976 that flew out of the fog on the Wash with a curlew escort passing only feet above my head , to return an hour later , fish a dead gull out of the sea and land 50 yards away and eat it. As my mate said at the time B--dy He-l its as big as a donkey. If they came under their own steam great , but its clearly bad practice to introduce a feral stock in such a valuable area as East Anglia
Sea eagled probably would thrive in East Anglia , but the major risks to a number of existing conservation projects and risks seriously upsetting the land users of the area. One of my major concerns is at the moment shooting interests are not a serious threat to raptors in the area. yes the odd bird does get killed , but if it was a problem marsh harriers and buzzards would not had the huge population increases they have had . The introduction of such a large predator who doubtless not ignore the thousands of reared game birds in East Anglia may well be the straw that breaks the camels back. Is it really worth taking that risk.
As for wind farms , I have conections in the industry and long term there plans for large numbers of turbines in a belt between the sea and the Broads that would pose a big risk to the eagles. Before you say it " the eagles are being released in Suffolk " . Norfolk is but a very short distance away and I doubt the birds would respect the county boundary. I could never understand why is not ok to release them in Norfolk and yet it is in Suffolk.
I have had great experiences with sea eagles in Norfolk and will never forget one back in 1976 that flew out of the fog on the Wash with a curlew escort passing only feet above my head , to return an hour later , fish a dead gull out of the sea and land 50 yards away and eat it. As my mate said at the time B--dy He-l its as big as a donkey. If they came under their own steam great , but its clearly bad practice to introduce a feral stock in such a valuable area as East Anglia
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jurek
Well-known member
Setting a big number of wind turbines between the major wetland and the sea would put many existing waterbirds in risk.
I hope this will be blocked no regard of eagles.
Jos Stratford
Beast from the East
Please expand, I see no conservation grounds to oppose the scheme.
This has got to be the wierdest, or saddest, post I have seen for a long time. Those blades, if posing a big risk to eagles, are also going to pose serious threat to Marsh Harriers, geese and other birds in East Anglia. As one of the central planks to your opposition to the eagle reintroduction is a worry that conservation may suffer, then you might better oppose the windfarms, rather than use them as an argument against the reintroduction.
Regardless of how you wish to classify it, introduction at a local level or reintroduction, I have not seen the case made that even closely approximates to 'it's clearly bad practice...''.
Jos
Quote " Please expand, I see no conservation grounds to oppose the scheme."
We have scattered across the coastal wetlands nationally important breeding populations of various species such as bittern , avocet , a variety of terns and the common crane project to name a few of the areas vulnerable birds. I remember when there was an escaped golden eagle over Fritton Marsh for several days. It disturbed almost all the waders and wildfowl for miles around. Many lapwing nests failed though how much was due to chilling and how much was due to crows taking advantage of the unguarded nests. A few years ago when a goshawk arrived at Scolt head the summer warden told me it caused chaos in the tern colony even though it was only present for a few hours. It seemed partial to the young chicks. Common cranes are at the best of times very nervous birds and I suspect it would be a disaster if a sea eagle took up residence in the area for any length of time. I have bred them in captivity and the mere presence of buzzards will upset breeding birds
Quote "Regardless of how you wish to classify it, introduction at a local level or reintroduction, I have not seen the case made that even closely approximates to 'it's clearly bad practice...''.
In conservation ecology it is considered very risky to introduce species into non native areas as it frequently has unforeseen results. That’s why I call it bad practice.
As for the wind farms , this country is headed for an energy shortage in the near future and I am afraid no government is going to put birds before energy for the electorate and industry. At best all we can hope for is the most valuable areas being protected. If you doubt this just think where some of the most recent wind farms have been placed - the Wash and that’s after the governments own conservation body strongly objected to it.
One other final thought do we want to turn the countryside into some sort of zoo by releasing animals that there is no evidence were ever there as breeding species in the first place.
Quote " Please expand, I see no conservation grounds to oppose the scheme."
We have scattered across the coastal wetlands nationally important breeding populations of various species such as bittern , avocet , a variety of terns and the common crane project to name a few of the areas vulnerable birds. I remember when there was an escaped golden eagle over Fritton Marsh for several days. It disturbed almost all the waders and wildfowl for miles around. Many lapwing nests failed though how much was due to chilling and how much was due to crows taking advantage of the unguarded nests. A few years ago when a goshawk arrived at Scolt head the summer warden told me it caused chaos in the tern colony even though it was only present for a few hours. It seemed partial to the young chicks. Common cranes are at the best of times very nervous birds and I suspect it would be a disaster if a sea eagle took up residence in the area for any length of time. I have bred them in captivity and the mere presence of buzzards will upset breeding birds
Quote "Regardless of how you wish to classify it, introduction at a local level or reintroduction, I have not seen the case made that even closely approximates to 'it's clearly bad practice...''.
In conservation ecology it is considered very risky to introduce species into non native areas as it frequently has unforeseen results. That’s why I call it bad practice.
As for the wind farms , this country is headed for an energy shortage in the near future and I am afraid no government is going to put birds before energy for the electorate and industry. At best all we can hope for is the most valuable areas being protected. If you doubt this just think where some of the most recent wind farms have been placed - the Wash and that’s after the governments own conservation body strongly objected to it.
One other final thought do we want to turn the countryside into some sort of zoo by releasing animals that there is no evidence were ever there as breeding species in the first place.
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John B (not the sloop)
Don't blame me I didn't vote for 'em
Can't see a lot of point in this particular reintroduction. Bigoted oafs with shotguns and supplies of certain "agricultural" chemicals will probably doom it to failure.
If we weren't on the brink of losing the Hen Harrier as a English breeding species, and Golden Eagles were doing better I'd say give the White taileds a go, but if we can't even successfully protect what we've got I wouldn't be investing in a species that makes the Daily Wail feel inclined to run an article some "local" who looks like Harry Hill's Heather from Eastenders lookalike about WTEs' main diet being poodles and piglets........
In case you missed it http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1248984/Releasing-sea-eagles-threatens-birds--pet-dogs--conservation-goes-PC.html
If we weren't on the brink of losing the Hen Harrier as a English breeding species, and Golden Eagles were doing better I'd say give the White taileds a go, but if we can't even successfully protect what we've got I wouldn't be investing in a species that makes the Daily Wail feel inclined to run an article some "local" who looks like Harry Hill's Heather from Eastenders lookalike about WTEs' main diet being poodles and piglets........
In case you missed it http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1248984/Releasing-sea-eagles-threatens-birds--pet-dogs--conservation-goes-PC.html
timwootton
Well-known member
John B (not the sloop); the Daily Wail feel inclined to run an article some "local" who looks like Harry Hill's Heather from Eastenders lookalike about WTEs' main diet being poodles and piglets........ In case you missed it [URL said:
Excellent article - many thanks for the link JohnB - I needed a pick me up at this time on Sunday eve.
Also nice to see my old pal Dr Ian Rotherham (of Sheffield Hallam University) getting in the way of the Author's blunderbuss (I know what he'd do if they met face to face).
Farnboro John
Well-known member
Goshawks are native to the UK and their historical distribution was basically anywhere with a lot of trees i.e. anywhere. Between juvenile dispersal, immature wanderings and winter movements it would seem more likely that tern distribution altered as a result of Goshawk persecution than that terns have never encountered Goshawks. It is however an interesting anecdote if only for the notion that the Scolt Head warden told somebody something bird-related.
Common Cranes share breeding habitat with a wide variety of aerial and terrestrial raptors and are not endangered throughout their range as a consequence, so your comment in respect of them is clearly wrong or at least irrelevant to the situation in the wild. BTW I found Cranes quite approachable in Finland in summer.
Neither of which alters my opinion that what is needed is continuing effort to secure the WTE in its core area of the Highlands: do that and if the habitat is suitable they will move South in their own time and on their own terms.
John
Jos Stratford
Beast from the East
Jos said:
Thank you for expanding your concerns, still I see no conservation grounds to oppose the scheme.
All the species you list commonly breed alongside lowland White-tailed Eagles across their range, I know of no evidence to link breeding success, or lack of, of these species to the presence of White-tailed Eagle.
At the level of personal observation, I know of Bitterns and Common Cranes that breed within 150 metres of a lowland White-tailed Eagle, plus tern colonies not much further. Despite regular overflight of the eagles, I have neither witnessed predation of any of these species (including prey remains at nest), nor noted any reduction in breeding success that might be related to the disturbance angle.
I would suggest it certainly would not be a disaster. I can't speak for breeding captive birds, but wild Common Cranes breeding throughout the bulk of their range contend daily with many raptors in the area, including White-tailed Eagle.
Jos Stratford
Beast from the East
White-tailed Eagles are not a 'foreign alien species'. There are natural to both lowland North Sea habitats and native to the UK, thus to hint they are akin to a a 'zoo species' is far from the truth.
We can debate all day about geographical scale when talking about evidence if it occurred in the exact site proposed for reintroduction. I think we both agree that there is evidence they occurred in the UK, but your concern seems to be the lack of direct evidence for Suffolk per se. Since White-tailed Eagles are primarily a species of wetland ecosystems in lowlands throughout most of their range, and they do occur in lowland habitats bordering the North Sea today, their absence from prime habitat in East Anglia is an anomaly.
Out of interest, if we take a range of other species from East Anglia (that do still breed), is there direct evidence that they all bred in pre-Victorian times. Detailed evidence for each bird at each locality would surprise me, so a lack of evidence for one species, i.e. White-tailed Eagle, does not surprise me.
There a wide variety of birds mention in history writings going back 100s of years. Some such as bittern and crane for food , ruffs for their feathers , red kites scavenging the town streets , others such as ravens and crows over battlefields so it seems very strange that such an iconic bird as the sea eagle does not feature in such writings. I would suggest they are not mentioned because they were not there. There are a number of bird species that are found just across the North Sea , but not in England as breeding species so using your argument is their absence anomaly too.
There is no escaping the fact that there is no evidence of sea eagles ever having bred in East Anglia and as such any released birds would be introduced species. Full stop.
In time of course birds would get used to new predators in the area. One only has to look back 40 years to see the effect helicopters had on many species of waterfowl and waders in the Breydon area. It took years for the local birds to get used to them and its probable that in time our breeding stocks of bittern\crane\avocet ect would get used to the sea eagles. But its taken a lot of conservation effort to build up the populations of these species and for some they still hang on a knife edge so is it really worth taking the risk. I have been involved with bird survey work for wind farms and some of the understandable objections to stop building them at some sites from the RSPB was that if one bittern was killed in the turbines that would represent a loss of 1% of the UK population. If the risk of losing 1% of the population is unacceptable from a wind farm it must also be unacceptable from a sea eagle. Perhaps it would be an idea to test run a captive falconers eagle over Minsmere and see just what effect it would have on the breeding waterbirds.
On a personal note I would love to see sea eagles spreading naturally from their European breeding areas , but artificial introductions are not the route conservation should be going down , its makes more conservation sense for “in situ” conservation ( get the habitat right and the backing of local people ) rather than inserting a species into an area. I may be dead by the time sea eagles arrive , but the way they are spreading across Europe at the moment , if the habitat is right they will come .
There is no escaping the fact that there is no evidence of sea eagles ever having bred in East Anglia and as such any released birds would be introduced species. Full stop.
In time of course birds would get used to new predators in the area. One only has to look back 40 years to see the effect helicopters had on many species of waterfowl and waders in the Breydon area. It took years for the local birds to get used to them and its probable that in time our breeding stocks of bittern\crane\avocet ect would get used to the sea eagles. But its taken a lot of conservation effort to build up the populations of these species and for some they still hang on a knife edge so is it really worth taking the risk. I have been involved with bird survey work for wind farms and some of the understandable objections to stop building them at some sites from the RSPB was that if one bittern was killed in the turbines that would represent a loss of 1% of the UK population. If the risk of losing 1% of the population is unacceptable from a wind farm it must also be unacceptable from a sea eagle. Perhaps it would be an idea to test run a captive falconers eagle over Minsmere and see just what effect it would have on the breeding waterbirds.
On a personal note I would love to see sea eagles spreading naturally from their European breeding areas , but artificial introductions are not the route conservation should be going down , its makes more conservation sense for “in situ” conservation ( get the habitat right and the backing of local people ) rather than inserting a species into an area. I may be dead by the time sea eagles arrive , but the way they are spreading across Europe at the moment , if the habitat is right they will come .
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david kelly
Drive-by Birder
DavidP
Well-known member
I understand the last breeding record in England was in 1780 on the Isle of Wight
http://wild-birds.suite101.com/article.cfm/the-re-introduction-of-sea-eagles-to-england
http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/blogs/markavery/archive/2010/01/06/white-tailed-eagles-again.aspx
and there seems to be quite a few stories from the nearby New Forest and below is the supposed Eagle oak where the last New Forest eagle was shot sometime in early 1800's
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/271589
All in all why not reintroduce on the Island the tourist industry and the economy in general could use all the help it can get for one of the poorer areas in england and there's plenty of estuaries, secluded cliffs and rabbits a plenty.
http://wild-birds.suite101.com/article.cfm/the-re-introduction-of-sea-eagles-to-england
http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/blogs/markavery/archive/2010/01/06/white-tailed-eagles-again.aspx
and there seems to be quite a few stories from the nearby New Forest and below is the supposed Eagle oak where the last New Forest eagle was shot sometime in early 1800's
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/271589
All in all why not reintroduce on the Island the tourist industry and the economy in general could use all the help it can get for one of the poorer areas in england and there's plenty of estuaries, secluded cliffs and rabbits a plenty.
I should have made it clearer there are mention of eagles in at least one northern English battle accounts . I have been talking more on an East Anglian scale – their proposed introduction site. I would be very interested if you can find the source of and perhaps more important the area where the battles took place. These Anglo Saxon - Viking battles would obvously have been over a thousand years ago.
Like wise can anyone name the East Anglian villages bearing eagle in their name.
Like wise can anyone name the East Anglian villages bearing eagle in their name.
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If your opinion is that birds shouldn't be re-introduced unless it can be proven beyond doubt that they existed in the precise area of the reintroduction then thats fine, but your statement here is simply wrong!
Lack of evidence is NOT evidence of absense. Birds have been studied and recorded to todays standards for a relatively short time. No-one can say for sure when there were eagles in East Anglia and no one can say for sure that there were never any!
If this debate is going to stop going round in circles, both sides need to stop claiming facts, which are not there.
Quote "There is no escaping the fact that there is no evidence of sea eagles ever having bred in East Anglia and as such any released birds would be introduced species "
It my statment is wrong please provide the evidence that Sea Eagles have bred in East Anglia. There is more evidence for UFOs and the Loch Ness monster that breeding sea eagles in this part of the country.
It my statment is wrong please provide the evidence that Sea Eagles have bred in East Anglia. There is more evidence for UFOs and the Loch Ness monster that breeding sea eagles in this part of the country.
jurek
Well-known member
Your statement is wrong because historic records are too sporadic to claim existence or absence of birds.
I see that wind turbines are more threat to conservation than I previously thought. I didn't know that lobby will pre-emptively object to any future conservation or development of the place.
I see that wind turbines are more threat to conservation than I previously thought. I didn't know that lobby will pre-emptively object to any future conservation or development of the place.
Its an incredibly narrow viewpoint to assume that unless there is evidence for something, it never happened - especially when historic records are so sporadic
Likening the probability of a wide ranging bird formerly breeding in prime habitat such as East Anglia to the existence of mythical creatures doesn't do your argument any favours!
