Taiga or Tundra (Ottawa/E.Ontario/Canada)? (1 Viewer)

[C B Allen]

Been asked by birding buddy in Ottawa for opinions on this bird, present for last couple of days. Like MOST of the locals thinking Taiga but always easier in the flesh ...

https://ebird.org/checklist/S76060482

Think it's new for the "Ottawa 50" whichever!

 

[Bismarck Honeyeater]

Been asked by birding buddy in Ottawa for opinions on this bird, present for last couple of days. Like MOST of the locals thinking Taiga but always easier in the flesh ...

https://ebird.org/checklist/S76060482

Think it's new for the "Ottawa 50" whichever!

If that turned up locally to me in the U.K., I would not feel happy calling it Taiga (we have two regular, but dwindling, wintering flocks here) Taiga appear long necked and longer headed, with more orange (but variable) up the length of the bill.
Tundra appear stubbier in all proportions, shorter neck and Bill, the latter with an orange band, as in your bird. Overall they are similar to Pink-footed Goose, though I appreciate that’s of little help in Canada.

The only fly in the ointment is that there are three(?) other races that we don’t get here that you would have to take into account in a Canadian vagrancy context that are somewhat intermediate!

 

[Xenospiza]

A Tundra for me. It would not stand out in our rossicus flocks at all!

 

[C B Allen]

If that turned up locally to me in the U.K., I would not feel happy calling it Taiga (we have two regular, but dwindling, wintering flocks here) Taiga appear long necked and longer headed, with more orange (but variable) up the length of the bill.
Tundra appear stubbier in all proportions, shorter neck and Bill, the latter with an orange band, as in your bird. Overall they are similar to Pink-footed Goose, though I appreciate that’s of little help in Canada.

The only fly in the ointment is that there are three(?) other races that we don’t get here that you would have to take into account in a Canadian vagrancy context that are somewhat intermediate!

Thanks for your thoughts/comments Paul. It's difficult from stills to get a feel for the bird and I've seen lots more pics of the same bird among which some give more of a Tundra feel. Literature also reckons some birds very hard to separate. It's a few years since we had the Norfolk birds out on the marshes at back of the house & TBH haven't seen many of either in the last few years (note to make more effort this winter!).

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Having learned much from posts here and in german birderforums, I agree with Xenospiza, that this is a rossicus. Rossicus can have longer bills and more extensive orange colouration to bills. This can be so evident, that they stand out in a flock of rossicus.
The identifiable fabalis I have seen and identified as such, where geese, that gave a swan like impression with a long neck.

 

[Brian J Small]

More images, some more helpful than others, which look more like Taiga Bean?

https://ebird.org/checklist/S76021635
https://ebird.org/qc/checklist/S76046776
https://ebird.org/checklist/S76030582

Brian S

 

[C B Allen]

Have PM'd you re: extra/better pics

 

[lupokatja]

More images, some more helpful than others, which look more like Taiga Bean?

https://ebird.org/checklist/S76021635
https://ebird.org/qc/checklist/S76046776
https://ebird.org/checklist/S76030582

Brian S

To be honest, I don't see any features that suggest it is not a Tundra Bean Goose. I see a rather compact, greyish, short-necked, short-billed bird with a rounded/triangular-shaped (rather than wedge-shaped) head. I would be surprised if the additional/better pictures would change that view.

Lützen Portengen

 

[pbjosh]

I don't have the field experience to opine on this bird but I find this complex quite interesting. It does seem that evidence increasingly points to a lump being warranted - though there still remains the fact that middendorfi might well warrant being separated out, which would leave something like Pink-footed Goose, Bean Goose, and Middendorf's (Bean) Goose as the new species limits.

In case anyone interested hasn't seen it, there's a recent paper on this, as well as the classic 2008 paper:

The 08 paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5305402_Taxonomy_of_the_bean_goose-pink-footed_goose

Article summarizing the 08 paper: http://www.surfbirds.com/community-blogs/northcoastdiaries/?p=2489

The recent paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...=In this study, we focus,Pink-footed Goose, A.

Article summarizing/discussing the recent paper: https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/news/tundra-and-taiga-bean-goose-like-em-or-lump-em

 

[Nutcracker]

I don't have the field experience to opine on this bird but I find this complex quite interesting. It does seem that evidence increasingly points to a lump being warranted - though there still remains the fact that middendorfi might well warrant being separated out, which would leave something like Pink-footed Goose, Bean Goose, and Middendorf's (Bean) Goose as the new species limits.

Don't rely on it! Taiga Bean is closer to Pinkfoot, than it is to Tundra Bean . . . but also lots of gene flow between all of them.

https://twitter.com/Jente_O/status/1317120924924186627

So it may come to lumping Pinkfoot into Bean s.l. :eek!: or else even more splitting. But need to wait for Jente's research to be published.

 

[pbjosh]

Interesting! It's definitely easy to believe that a more holistic genomic evaluation is going to reveal more detail about the complex than prior efforts. Looking forward to seeing this paper!

 

[Bismarck Honeyeater]

I don't have the field experience to opine on this bird but I find this complex quite interesting. It does seem that evidence increasingly points to a lump being warranted - though there still remains the fact that middendorfi might well warrant being separated out, which would leave something like Pink-footed Goose, Bean Goose, and Middendorf's (Bean) Goose as the new species limits.

In case anyone interested hasn't seen it, there's a recent paper on this, as well as the classic 2008 paper:

The 08 paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5305402_Taxonomy_of_the_bean_goose-pink-footed_goose

Article summarizing the 08 paper: http://www.surfbirds.com/community-blogs/northcoastdiaries/?p=2489

The recent paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41...=In this study, we focus,Pink-footed Goose, A.

Article summarizing/discussing the recent paper: https://birdsoftheworld.org/bow/news/tundra-and-taiga-bean-goose-like-em-or-lump-em

Don’t know anything about the DNA but I would have thought Taiga is closer to Middendorf (in looks) than Tundra.

 

[Bismarck Honeyeater]

Don't rely on it! Taiga Bean is closer to Pinkfoot, than it is to Tundra Bean . . . but also lots of gene flow between all of them.

https://twitter.com/Jente_O/status/1317120924924186627

So it may come to lumping Pinkfoot into Bean s.l. :eek!: or else even more splitting. But need to wait for Jente's research to be published.

At one time they were all lumped of course. I’d be prepared to believe Tundra and Pink-foot were close, but Taiga separate. But DNA is full of surprises.

 

[Brian J Small]

To be honest, I don't see any features that suggest it is not a Tundra Bean Goose. I see a rather compact, greyish, short-necked, short-billed bird with a rounded/triangular-shaped (rather than wedge-shaped) head. I would be surprised if the additional/better pictures would change that view.

Lützen Portengen

Hi Lutzen

Having looked at more images, I agree with Tundra Bean.

Brian

 

[pajarito]

Another photo of the Ottawa Bean Goose

Here's another photo - taken this morning. Admittedly a poor image but it does show the head in profile. I can see why people are saying Taiga, but for my money it is a Tundra.

 

[Bismarck Honeyeater]

Interesting Californian bird here: https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=593641965&set=gm.3702459759814640&source=48

Presumably Middendorf, sort of mid-way between stumpy Tundra and Swan-like Taiga.