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Tern, Warbler, Buzzard ID Pakistan (1 Viewer)

Himalaya

Well-known member
Has the shoulder mark of a Black Tern ....seems to show more of a grey rump than white......taken in Karachi....03/10/20

the warbler is a Large Billed Reed Warbler?...taken in Sind....a month ago...

The Buzzard.....Common but which subspecies......it was taken in the South Eastern province of Sind...a month ago...
 

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Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! 😎
Europe
1. The tern looks like a White-winged Tern to me - Black Tern doesn’t occur in Pakistan
2..Maybe Clamorous Reed Warbler - do you have any more images of this?
3. Not sure about the buteo - it looks very small ...I would say ‘Common‘ without being more specific. (it’s a lovely photo btw)
 
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Alexander Stöhr

Well-known member
Difficult Tern, there was a similar bird some time ago, that wasn’t answered yet. I must admit, when I saw this bird in Europe, I would make a quick jizz Id, as a Black Tern. but knowing that Black Tern isn’t a option in Pakistan, I remember a few similar 1cy Whiskered terns I saw in France. They looked similar to this bird.
so I think a Whiskered Tern is a better fit. Reason:
Extensive dark breast patch just within variation for Whiskered (narrow shape is within variation for Black Tern, variation of breast patch is great in Black Tern)
Dark grey rump, please note that upper tail coverts can be grey in all Marsh Terns
Broad black cap reaching far down to the neck that is broad in the neck
Broad bill in a god shape for Whiskered, being slightly to large for Black and would be monster for WWBT
Almost Lack of dark leading edge is also better for Whiskered

conclusion, I am no expert in variation of WWBT, but have seen similar Whiskered Terns before. So I hope to be corrected and learn, because I would I’d this bird as a propable Whiskered
 

Himalaya

Well-known member
If a Ruby Crowned Kinglet can make it across the Atlantic Ocean surely a Black Tern can occur in South Asia? A Kittiwake has been recorded in Pakistan - not on the coast but on a saline lake 2500m above sea level in the Karakorams!

Looks like the Tern could be Whiskered then sadly.
 

Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! 😎
Europe
I agree this could be a Whiskered Tern, the images are not easy, however, I think the confusion with WWBT snd Black Tern is in danger of being overlooked here:

There are features here that are not being considered imo - separating WWBT, Black Tern and Whiskered Tern is not so straight forward as is being suggested:

  1. The head pattern of juvenile and adult WWBT are very similar to Black Tern. As in the OP, the ‘headphones’ are solid black, extending below the eye with the white behind the ear-coverts reaching high towards the back of the head (as in the OP). The dark ear-coverts in Juvenile WT can extend below the eye but don’t show the OP’s high white area behind the ear coverts cf to WWBT and Black Tern
  2. see Shanghai link for cf WT to WWBT https://singaporebirdgroup.wordpress.com/2015/10/09/white-winged-or-whiskered-terns/
  3. The headphone pattern and top of the head are solidly black in WWBT and BT By autumn, juvenile Whiskered Terns already have greyish streaking on the forehead/crown and don’t don’t show a notably strong demarkation between the crown and white forehead.
  4. Bill length - there is overlap in bill length between WWBT and WT - with the longest bill of males in BT and WWBT overlapping with female WT - the bill looks within variation for WWBT
  5. WWBT have a pronounced contrast still in Autumn, between the dark saddle and paler wings and white rump (with grey utcs) which shows in the OP.
  6. Juvenile WT moult much earlier (July/August) than WWBT (at least in Western populations) so by early autumn are already replacing the dark saddle feathers and the contrast is not as obvious as in WWBT this time of year (October)
  7. Whiskered Tern lacks the breast patch or only shows a faint one. WWBT and BT can both show thin distinct shoulder line (overlap) as in the OP (overlap)
  8. (I’m hoping this WWBT is correctly labelled ! https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/276673151
  9. The 3rd image of the OP shows a fairly strong contrast with a distinctly white rump, sandwiched between the dark lower edge of the saddle and the darker/grey utcs all features of WWBT (by late autumn this will have reduced further but already the juvenile feathers are being replaced with 2nd gen ) - in WT the rear of the saddle is less solid looking with lower edge of the saddle and the utcs are more concolourous.
  10. WWBT can also lack a dark leading edge to the wing and whether ir not this is visible can also depend on lighting conditions.
Taken from BB paper but I need to find the link. Edit Here : http://britishbirds.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/article_files/V82/V82_N07/V82_N07_P296_319_A085.pdf

I am not 100% convinced the OP is a WT - there’s a lot of overlapping features with some point more towards one or the other.
 
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Nutcracker

Stop Brexit!
A Kittiwake has been recorded in Pakistan - not on the coast but on a saline lake 2500m above sea level in the Karakorams!
I remember reading about that one and seeing the pics - one of the most extraordinary records, anywhere, ever, I reckon!
 

andyb39

Well-known member
Are there any more images of the Warbler at all?
Yes, I would like to see some. We've had similar images of what were probably rather long-billed Blyth's Reed Warblers on the forum before. It could be Clamorous but the legs look a bit thin and don't seem to be the right colour.
 

Alexander Stöhr

Well-known member
Thank you Deb for your detailed answer!
As said, I have only seen a few 1 cy WWBT, but many BT and WT, so your answer is very helpfull to me!
Regarding the breast patch: In "Bestimmung der Sumpfseeschwalben" by Christopher Schmidt, Abb. 5 and Tafel 1, there are two WT with a similar breast patch like in the OP. Equipped with this paper , I searched for WT in France and found WT with similar breast patches. You can find it here: http://www.limicola.de/downloads.html (direct linking is not allowed, and I respect this. I hope, this is ok here).
Reading your answer, I see a white dot now, that could well be the small white rump good for a WWBT, but: isnt this dot just not broad enough for the rump patch of WWBT. This is my impression.

And I see the yellowish-buffish tinge of a worn/faded WT upperpart feathers now, after Tom mentioned it (Thank you Tom)

I hope this is not regarded as an offense, as allways. And more, I hope you find the time for more such detailed answers, so helpful to me.
 

Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! 😎
Europe
Yes, I would like to see some. We've had similar images of what were probably rather long-billed Blyth's Reed Warblers on the forum before. It could be Clamorous but the legs look a bit thin and don't seem to be the right colour.
I agree - it’s difficult to see the tail length from this angle and how much of the short impression is due to foreshortened angle. Ideally an image of the wing would clinch it.(or the tail!). The toes actually look quite ‘clubby’ to me. The face pattern perhaps a good fit for a Clam with the super flaring behind the eye?
 

Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! 😎
Europe
As for the Terns, I woud be interested in hearing comments from others who have more experience separating juvenile Marsh Terns at this time of year in Asia.
 

lou salomon

the birdonist
apart from the shoulder patch this juv marsh tern looks like a perfect WWBT to me. never seen such a shoulder patch in Chl. leucopterus, but head pattern and bill shape/length are best for this species as is the solid dark looking mantle (no paler/yellowish fringes as in WT).
 

Alexander Stöhr

Well-known member
No, I havent experience with the relevant warbler species (only saw one Blyth Reed Warbler before). Same for the Buzzard, but I looked at the picture and my gut feeling: it would stand out among CB in Germany by uniform honey-buff underparts with an pure orange tinge (thats the colour I see on my screen) and exact shape of broad streaks to underparts. I know, this is (surely) within variation for "European CB".
I am sure this isnt helpfull!
 

Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! 😎
Europe
... Same for the Buzzard, but I looked at the picture and my gut feeling: it would stand out among CB in Germany by uniform honey-buff underparts with an pure orange tinge (thats the colour I see on my screen) and exact shape of broad streaks to underparts. I know, this is (surely) within variation for "European CB".
I am sure this isnt helpfull!
Actually, I agree but it is indeed an unusually ‘yellow’ individual.

If I ever get to meet Dick Forsman, the first thing I will ask is, ‘Could you please, please write an illustrated book solely on the buteos of Europe, Asia and the Middle East - including explanation of full taxonomic history, range maps and intergrade zones for each subspecies, descriptions for each ‘typical’ phenotype as well as for examples of hybrids’ - that will keep him busy for a few years - 😁Problem is, the taxonomy will probably be out of date as soon as it were published.
 

Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! 😎
Europe
The tern is a Whiskered.
Note the diagnostic, thin dark tail band.
I don’t see a dark tail band, only some darkened tips to the retrices as the bird in this link

Darkened a bit more by age

(I can see any at all in image #1)
 
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