The extirpation of eagles from Scotland (windfarms again) (1 Viewer)

[Jane Turner]

If you had paid attention to Colin's excellent post # 362, you would have noticed that WTE's feed on shallow water fish. Cod is pelagic:

I thought you were up on eagle information Mark. WTE feed rather a lot on scraps and cast offs from the fishing industry. There will be no fishing industry. In any case, if you had bothered to look, the Cod example was for Stellers Sea Eagle - a species which has altered its feeding habit following the collapse of the Cod fishing industry in the NW Pacific. It is now getting poisoned on a regular basis. The point was showing that a loss of a major food source - in the WTE case the fish and seabirds that currently form the vast majority of its breeding season diet, will not be a good thing for WTE.

The marine ecology of NW Scotland is changing incredibly fast. You may note that WTE is not a breeding species in France or Galicia.

 

[Jane Turner]

As the RSPB says, they have a varied diet. So this kills your "specialist diet" argument. And as the BLI study quoted by Colin says, they eat shallow-water fish: so that kills your "cod" argument.

Mark

Mark

I do expect there will be a need to artificially feed WTE - which brings us full circle. The original point I made was that setting up feeding stations for WTE will make it simple to keep the eagles and turbines apart - should there be turbines built there.

Another point you seem to have missed entirely is that I am not in favour of building turbines in places where the RSPB identify there is a significant risk. Its the wild assertion that wind farms will result in the extirpation of WTE I take exception to. Its complete nonsense.

Its another of those cases where your anti-wind farm fervour is in danger of making you miss the point that there are many many many more serious issues that will affect eagles. Climate change being the most significant one just now... closely followed by illegal poisoning, shooting and disturbance.

I'm half expecting you to start campaigning about the turbine I am building in my garden.

 

[Jane Turner]

During these years the numbers of young fledged per recorded range were 0.37/0.43;
0.37/0.13; 0/0.45 and 0.27/0.36 (Eisgein ranges / Rest of Lewis and Harris). Historically, the Eisgein birds appear to have been more productive.
Mark

Have now located the prodcutivity data for WTE.

In one Norwegian study the average of 93 nests was 1·6 young*per brood;
In another of 40 nests, despite 16 failures the average was 1·2 young*per nesting pair.

In 4 other smaller samples the average number of young varied between 1·08 and 1·9*per pair.

So it would seem that something is already very amiss in terms of nestling survival. Your information also shows that productivity is declining. This might suggest that Scottish WTE are suffering the effects of some inadequacy in their environment.

 

[Tyke]

There will be no fishing industry.

You do make some outrageous statements Jane! This is complete & utter balderdash.

The essence of climate change effect is that some niches close & others open. Species move & adapt.

Here in Cornwall, CWT's Environmental Records Centre has been monitoring changes if fish species in our SW waters.In the past four decades 18 species of warm water fish new to Cornish & Scillonian records have been recorded
1980s 6 species
1990s 9species
2000/2001 3species

13 of these are new to the British List. Not only this but warm-water species are occuring in record numbers. These include Oceanic Sunfish (a major tourist attraction along with burgeoning numbers of cetaceans & basking shark-"seafaris" are growing like topsy down here) , Grey Trigger-fish & Couch's sea-bream . Sea Bass moving North & East are encouraging local anglers & raising the prospect of commercial fishing. Various species of Tuna are already in sufficient numbers to warrant a trial fishery.
All of this is mirrored in the North Sea :-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/fish/story/0,7369,1450802,00.html?gusrc=rss

There will be no shortage of fish in the North Sea. WTE will find plenty of fishing boats-& fine fat stranded cetaceans to feast on-if it ever settles on the east coast.

The WTE in Norway is doing fine -so there ain't a problem in their part of the North Sea :-

http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/sites/?action=SpcHTMDetails.asp&sid=3364&m=0

Not surprising because their diet is so varied anyway-they are perfect candidates for adaptation to climate change -unless humans bugger them up-again!

The last link-a BirdLife International statement on WTE contains an assessment of the risks to the species. . If you can't be bothered to read it here it is :-

"Threats that affect this species include loss and degradation of wetlands, human disturbance and persecution, environmental pollution, collision with wind generators2, and indiscriminate use of poisons. Modern forestry methods reduce the availability of suitable nesting habitat. "



Will you now please stop trying to prove an imminent death by starvation in Scotland for WTE. If you are really interested in it's survival, campaign to stop wind turbines in it's territories, and stop using your GW apocalyptic hype to justify more & more of these things. You must realise by now that every wind farm proposal is predicated on the financial interests of the developer. It is taking an army of dedicated conservationists & people who value heritage landscapes to keep these things at bay.

Colin

 

[Jane Turner]

Will you now please stop trying to prove an imminent death by starvation in Scotland for WTE. If you are really interested in it's survival, campaign to stop wind turbines in it's territories, and stop using your GW apocalyptic hype to justify more & more of these things. You must realise by now that every wind farm proposal is predicated on the financial interests of the developer. It is taking an army of dedicated conservationists & people who value heritage landscapes to keep these things at bay.

Colin

Colin the question being debated on this thread is will wind farms result in the extirpation of eagles in Scotland. Patently they will not. Even if they were rather foolishly put in every WTE territory in the UK. There is more liklihood that climate change will have an impact.

What do you make of the low and declining productivity of Scottish WTE in comparison to Norwegian birds? Are they just unlucky?


Landscapes - well that is a different debate - but not the one we are talking about.

 

[Tyke]

Colin the question being debated on this thread is will wind farms result in the extirpation of eagles in Scotland. Patently they will not. Even if they were rather foolishly put in every WTE territory in the UK. There is more liklihood that climate change will have an impact.

What do you make of the low and declining productivity of Scottish WTE in comparison to Norwegian birds? Are they just unlucky?


Landscapes - well that is a different debate - but not the one we are talking about.

We are never going to agree Jane-you are so desperate to make climate change the risk to WTE. It isn't-turbines are-fact per BLI-I believe them-not you.

I don't make anything of "the low & declining productivity" etc. Where is the published evidence & why does it not accord with the facts per BLI

Why did you say there would be "no fishing industry in the North Sea " ?-you say all sorts of things which turn out to be wrong.

You are absolutely & totally wrong about "Landscape" it isn't a seperate issue. This isn't a term from painting-like "still life" for god's sake!! It's a legally recognised term to express the interaction-in a place-of people, wildlife, water, air, land, way of life, quality of life, livelihoods etc etc. The term encompasses EVERYTHING we have been talking about.
It's enshrined in an EC Convention -read it, then you'll understand the concept. I've already posted it & aint doing it again.It calls-amongst other things- for a proper balance between landscape & industrialisation.

Fat chance in UK-we aren't signiatories....& the wind farm industry wouldn't give a flying f**k if we were.

Colin

 

[Jane Turner]

We are never going to agree Jane-you are so desperate to make climate change the risk to WTE. It isn't-turbines are-fact per BLI-I believe them-not you.

I don't make anything of "the low & declining productivity" etc. Where is the published evidence & why does it not accord with the facts per BLI

Why did you say there would be "no fishing industry in the North Sea " ?-you say all sorts of things which turn out to be wrong.
Colin

Colin I'm not saying climate change will definitely result in the extinction of WTE - just that its a bigger threat to them than turbines.

I'm also, you might have noted, not in favour of putting turbines in sites that the RSPB have identified as high risk to eagles and am glad to see that message is getting through to the Scottish office.

The productivity figures are those quoted by Mark a few posts above. I'm hoping they are wrong since they are shocking and do really suggest a serious underlying malaise. The figures Mark posted were 0-0 - 0.43 young fledged per recorded range on Lewis and Harris compared to 1.0 to 1.9 in NW Europe - the latter figure is from BWP.

The north sea fishing industry is already in huge decline - that is fact... the Scottish seabird populations are already in a parlous state ...all is not well in the seas off Scotland.


WTE is doing fine in Norway - there is coexistence with Golden Eagle due to a lack of competition over food. Where WTE can feed on large populations of seabirds, sea ducks and fish, especially in the breeding season, it does. Where it can't - like it would appear is already happening in Scotland, it ends up in direct competition with Golden Eagle.

 

[Edward woodwood]

You do make some outrageous statements Jane! This is complete & utter balderdash.

The essence of climate change effect is that some niches close & others open. Species move & adapt.

Colin

sadly not

where will montane endemics in Peru/Philippines go to?

Climate change is patently a greater threat to WTE survival. Don't fall into Mark's trap of villifying wind farms for everything

Tim

 

[Jane Turner]

You are absolutely & totally wrong about "Landscape" it isn't a seperate issue.

Sorry Colin, I can't see how despoilation or otherwise (depending on your attitude to the visual impact of turbines) of a landscape will have the slightest impact on Eagle numbers.

 

[Tyke]

"I'm not saying climate change will definitely result in the extinction of WTE - just that its a bigger threat to them than turbines."

Then we disagree Jane-I believe the BirdLife International assessment.


"The north sea fishing industry is already in huge decline - that is fact... the Scottish seabird populations are already in a parlous state ...all is not well in the seas off Scotland."

This is a well recognised ploy of your's Jane-change the subject.

Yes I accept the above statement.But I do not accept your previous statement that there will be "no fishing " in the N Sea. I have demonstrated that new species of fish are moving in-some already in quantities which justify commercial exploitation.This will take time to work through-but the N Sea will become a different habitat to the one we are used to. Some species will lose out-some will gain from this change.But have no doubt-there will be fish in the North Sea.

"Where it can't - like it would appear is already happening in Scotland, it ends up in direct competition with Golden Eagle."

Another classic Jane ploy ( I'm becoming an avid student of your work Jane! )-Imply the general from the specific-and blur the edges a little.
You continue to draw conclusions for WTE in "Scotland" from conditions on Mull.
Mull contains the largest population density of GE in Europe & around 5% of Scotlands breeding population. In 2005 30% of fledged WTE young were born on Mull.....so 70% were not.
The definitive study of WTE predation of lambs on Mull is here ( it is more to do with opportunism & population density than lack of fish) :-

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library5/environment/wesfm.pdf

The diet of the Mull WTE contains 15 mammal species/51 bird species/ 23 fish species / 5 other species ( including squid-which is appearing in the N Sea in enormous quantities as already posted )
The WTE diet in Scotland is described in the above study as " extraordinarily species-diverse"

Colin

 

[Tyke]

sadly not

where will montane endemics in Peru/Philippines go to?

Climate change is patently a greater threat to WTE survival. Don't fall into Mark's trap of villifying wind farms for everything

Tim

I said "some" Tim-like the N Sea which we were discussing.

I know nothing about montane endemics. Do they have a right to "go anywhere" if their habitat changes? Perhaps they will go extinct-other species will come in .This has always happened on our planet since life began.

Climate change is clearly not a greater threat in Scotland to WTE than turbines.

I try not to fall into traps Tim-which is why I read posts from you & Jane with great care & attention.

I don't "villify wind-farms for everything"-I think:-
* They are an expensive waste of time
*They will not help significantly address energy security, or CO2 emissions
*In general they are built in windy places, which tend to be wild places, which tend to be environmentally important habitats
*Their developers ( including the electricity companies which use them as a " green" marketing ploy to the gullible ) couldn't care less about the damage they do to wildlife & habitat-which is why they so consistently seek to underplay this factor.

Colin

 

[Tyke]

Sorry Colin, I can't see how despoilation or otherwise (depending on your attitude to the visual impact of turbines) of a landscape will have the slightest impact on Eagle numbers.

Sorry Jane we aren't on the same wavelength.
I have just tried to list some of the components of "Landscape"-perhaps you didn't read it.
Visual Impact is but a small consideration .
To understand "Landscape" as a definition of "place" & all the elements that go to make it up & which interact within it , I suggest you read the EC Convention on Landscape

Colin.

 

[Jane Turner]

Colin

Can you explain the low productivity figures posted by Mark - or the lack of coexistence in Scotland of Golden eagle and White-tailed Eagle?

Accepted that there may still be some fishing industry in the North Sea and am regretting a hastily constructed sentence in reply to Mark - do you accept that it will be significantly less than it was say 5, 10 and 30 years ago.

The warmer seas in Europe are not known for their huge seabird colonies.

 

[ed keeble]

WTE will always struggle where they are competing with GE for carrion in an unnatural [= heavily deforested] environment such as Mull.

In the medium term-with the aid of introductions- I expect to see WTE having better breeding success on the English E coast (more birds than N Sea fish- Avocets and Canada Goose for starters). Rather recalling productivity increase as Red Kite moves from upland to C and E England.

Whether WTE will ever do better further south than that; and whether they will prosper in a globally warmer climate I doubt- historically they never have done well in southern Europe. I suspect that one factor will prove to be that as it gets warmer (whether as you go further south or through global warming) WTE will faces a much greater range of scavenging species that can survive the winter and compete with it.

All of which is a way of getting round to the point that WTE has a complex but not necessarily bleak future. Unwisely sited windfarms may have a local effect on breeding and hunting WTE's. But to suggest in more genral terms that that windfarms are likely to lead to regional extirpation of WTE is boloney.

 

[Tyke]

All of which is a way of getting round to the point that WTE has a complex but not necessarily bleak future. Unwisely sited windfarms may have a local effect on breeding and hunting WTE's. But to suggest in more genral terms that that windfarms are likely to lead to regional extirpation of WTE is boloney.

What an interesting post White-back.

Reference your last sentence, I meant that windfarms in WTE territories are a "significant risk" to WTE populations-because that is what BLI think.The reason being that these would produce additional adult mortality in a species with low reproduction rates and a high known exposure to fatal collision with man made structures.
Also we have been discussing WTE in Scotland-an area which combines a small recently introduced population ( breeding does not occurr till the fifth year or so ) & a very large number of wind turbines-actual & proposed.
Yes of course it would be nonsense to claim that windfarms "in general" represent a threat to WTE.

Colin

 

[Tyke]

"Can you explain the low productivity figures posted by Mark - or the lack of coexistence in Scotland of Golden eagle and White-tailed Eagle?"

Are they "low"-I don't know-no I can't "explain"
them.

How do you explain the species diverse diet of the WTE on Mull , and their apparent ability to exist there alongside one of the densest concentrations of GE in Europe?


"do you accept that it will be significantly less than it was say 5, 10 and 30 years ago."

I have no idea-who can say-is it important to you that it is so-and why?
It will be different because the species will be different. Was the size of the N Sea fishing industry 5, 10 & 30 years ago sensible-or sustainable? Is it a good benchmark to use? Things will be different.Wind Farms won't make them less different. . Lots of other energy policy measures just might though -but I frankly wonder whether we will ever put them into place in time. Whatever "in time" actually turns out to be !

Colin

 

[Edward woodwood]

I said "some" Tim-like the N Sea which we were discussing.

I know nothing about montane endemics. Do they have a right to "go anywhere" if their habitat changes? Perhaps they will go extinct-other species will come in .This has always happened on our planet since life began.

Colin

WHAT??!

a right?

it would appear that being anti wind farms is more important to you than species survival then

btw, there are loads of montane endems with nowhere to go

Tim

 

[Jane Turner]

Its important Colin - because its a measure of the health of the marine ecology of Scotland.

This is the food source that WTE can exploit without competition with Golden eagle. Remove it from the equation and while WTE can eat Bib, Rainbow Wrasse etc, there will not be the great concentratons of fish and seabirds that can sustain the two species side by side. Its likely that WTE will have a higher winter survival rate than GE and GE will have better breeding success than WTE. Whatever happens the total number of pair of Eagles sustained in West Scotland will be significantly lower if the seabirds and fish continue to fail. WTE may be able to relocate - though then the wind farms in west scotland will be a danger to WTE argument will have evaporated.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Whatever happens the total number of pair of Eagles sustained in West Scotland will be significantly lower if the seabirds and fish continue to fail.

and i can just see what will get the blame though...

Tim

 

[ed keeble]

What an interesting post White-back.

Reference your last sentence, I meant that windfarms in WTE territories are a "significant risk" to WTE populations-because that is what BLI think.The reason being that these would produce additional adult mortality in a species with low reproduction rates and a high known exposure to fatal collision with man made structures.
Also we have been discussing WTE in Scotland-an area which combines a small recently introduced population ( breeding does not occurr till the fifth year or so ) & a very large number of wind turbines-actual & proposed.
Yes of course it would be nonsense to claim that windfarms "in general" represent a threat to WTE.

Colin

We may not be too far apart on that at all. What troubles me is seeing blanket opposition to wind turbines distracting from or maybe even impeding more thoughtful and selective opposition.