Jane Turner
Well-known member
white-back said:
That is precisely my position too.
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The extirpation of eagles from Scotland (windfarms again) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter David
- Start date
That is precisely my position too.
Tim Allwood said:
Don't be ridiculous Tim.
I was trying to be realistic-climate change means some extinctions.My opposition to wind farms ( grid connected factories-not domestic or community scale)is twofold:-
*They have become a panacea for GW solutions. They are not. This clouds the truth-we need big solutions, not toys.
*They are being built in places which put valued habitat/species at risk, by people who don't care about this, because they can make lots of money by doing it.
Colin
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Tyke said:
Written like that I'm very close to agreeing with you too Colin - though I don't quite agree with the seen as a panacea line. More a part of a necessary suite of solutions. I don't think we can wait around waiting for the big solution to appear.
white-back said:
Yep
I have a view the obverse of yours-blanket adherance to wind farms is a smoke screen, allowing governments to claim Kyoto points, whilst failing totally to adress the big issues of energy security & fossil fuel emissions.
I believe the penny is dropping-Blair at the G8 conference just ended ( which included China & India) is rowing back from targets, and focussing on technology. Remember-wind farms produce electricity ( a very small part of)-they ignore oil, & the transport sector.
Do you really think WTE could exist in SE England?-The last English breeding pair was on the Isle of Wight in the eighteenth century.What a prospect!
Colin
Edward woodwood
Member
Tyke said:
yes, but it came across incredibly blase
esp sitting next to claims WTE will be extirpated by wind farms
we are talking a LOT of birds in S America
no one says they're a panacea
and i don't buy the 'concerned about capitalist businessmen' bit... nice to see but i bet it's the first time!
fossil fuels will do for more species - go and protest at Shell or Exxon - do something worthwhile, not at some 10 pence wind farm company. Overall it's renewable and positive. The South American comparison should drive it home surely?
Tim
"yes, but it came across incredibly blase
esp sitting next to claims WTE will be extirpated by wind farms"
Didn't mean to be-not as emotional as you I guess because I don't know the species as well.
If WTE doesn't make it in Scotland due to Climate change-thats tough as far far as I'm concerned-but there you go.
If it doesn't make it because man has caused its local extinction by badly sited wind turbines-thats repeating past mistakes & totally unneccessary.
"and i don't buy the 'concerned about capitalist businessmen' bit... nice to see but i bet it's the first time"
I don't care what you can buy Tim. I perhaps don't have your simplistic black or white views on these matters. There are many shades of grey. Anyway-the current wind farm business isn't "capitalist" in the sense of "subject to market forces"-If it were , the turbines wouldn't be built.
Colin
esp sitting next to claims WTE will be extirpated by wind farms"
Didn't mean to be-not as emotional as you I guess because I don't know the species as well.
If WTE doesn't make it in Scotland due to Climate change-thats tough as far far as I'm concerned-but there you go.
If it doesn't make it because man has caused its local extinction by badly sited wind turbines-thats repeating past mistakes & totally unneccessary.
"and i don't buy the 'concerned about capitalist businessmen' bit... nice to see but i bet it's the first time"
I don't care what you can buy Tim. I perhaps don't have your simplistic black or white views on these matters. There are many shades of grey. Anyway-the current wind farm business isn't "capitalist" in the sense of "subject to market forces"-If it were , the turbines wouldn't be built.
Colin
Edward woodwood
Member
Tyke said:
huh?
I don't get it
if we lose a population of one species in one part of the country because of a wind farm it's terrible but if we lose several species due to (human induced) climate change it's okay?
Tim
Tim Allwood said:
We don't have to lose a population by wind farm impact because we don't have to build it-or at least we don't have to put it there.
The climate change is underway-its not "OK" that this will lead to extinctions-it's just inevitable that it will. We may-just may be able to mitigate this by absolutely MASSIVE reductions in fossil fuel use. But wind farms won't achieve this. I'm not too sanguine that anything will frankly.
I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to you but it does to me. If you run out of firewood you shouldn't burn the Mona Lisa first.
Colin
Grousemore
Senior Member
Tyke said:
Eloquently put, Colin.
I find myself in agreement with these statements, mainly due to your and others cohesive arguments, but combined with a distinct wariness of the motives of some of those holding opposing views.
Last edited:
Mark Duchamp
Guest
A British commentator John Brignell, has the following thoughts about wind farms, most notably the one just approved for Romney Marsh, in Kent.
Sacrifice
It is, of course, no coincidence that it is the most precious areas of
Britain that are being marked out as the sites for desecration by wind
turbine. Sacrifice is one of the most consistent principles throughout
all history of religion. Ostensibly the purpose of sacrifice is to
propitiate the gods, but in reality it exists to affirm the power of the
priesthood. Every society has its witch doctors, who exploit the naivety
of their fellows to hold them in thrall. The two essential features of
sacrifice are that it is pointless but painful. In the extreme it
involves the murder of innocents. The son of Abraham might have had a
last-minute reprieve, but in societies ranging from the Aztecs to the
Minoans human sacrifice was conducted on a large scale.
Likewise, the symbols of religion come to dominate the skyline. The
modern monotheistic religions compete with each other to build bigger
domes. So, it is not just for engineering reasons that the Dorset wind
turbines have to be taller than Salisbury cathedral. There is also
competition by sound; church bells, the amplified muezzin and now the
turbines noisily impose themselves upon the ears of the faithful.
Power is asserted by omnipresence and size. Portraits of Big Brother,
statues of Sadaam or Kim, the big yellow M, all stand as constant
reminders of where true power lies.
Ever since Sir Crispin Tickel became the Wormtongue who had the ear of
Margaret Thatcher, the new eco-theologians have exercised power within
the bureaucracy. Everywhere they gain entry they set about recruiting
their own kind. Thus, one by one, the pillars of the establishment fall
under their dominion - the BBC, the Royal Society, the political
parties, the newspapers etc. They pour scorn on science and its methods,
yet take its name in vain when it suits. When they commit their
atrocities on a landscape that has inspired some of the finest poetry
and art in human history, there is almost no one left with an outlet for
protest. Even if the most dire predictions of the wildest prophets of
global warming were correct, these mindless acts of desecration would
have a negligible effect; but if they were not pointless they would not
qualify as a sacrifice. And so they will march on, littering the land
with their monstrous and useless symbols of power.
Look on their works, ye mighty, and despair.
John Brignell
Sacrifice
It is, of course, no coincidence that it is the most precious areas of
Britain that are being marked out as the sites for desecration by wind
turbine. Sacrifice is one of the most consistent principles throughout
all history of religion. Ostensibly the purpose of sacrifice is to
propitiate the gods, but in reality it exists to affirm the power of the
priesthood. Every society has its witch doctors, who exploit the naivety
of their fellows to hold them in thrall. The two essential features of
sacrifice are that it is pointless but painful. In the extreme it
involves the murder of innocents. The son of Abraham might have had a
last-minute reprieve, but in societies ranging from the Aztecs to the
Minoans human sacrifice was conducted on a large scale.
Likewise, the symbols of religion come to dominate the skyline. The
modern monotheistic religions compete with each other to build bigger
domes. So, it is not just for engineering reasons that the Dorset wind
turbines have to be taller than Salisbury cathedral. There is also
competition by sound; church bells, the amplified muezzin and now the
turbines noisily impose themselves upon the ears of the faithful.
Power is asserted by omnipresence and size. Portraits of Big Brother,
statues of Sadaam or Kim, the big yellow M, all stand as constant
reminders of where true power lies.
Ever since Sir Crispin Tickel became the Wormtongue who had the ear of
Margaret Thatcher, the new eco-theologians have exercised power within
the bureaucracy. Everywhere they gain entry they set about recruiting
their own kind. Thus, one by one, the pillars of the establishment fall
under their dominion - the BBC, the Royal Society, the political
parties, the newspapers etc. They pour scorn on science and its methods,
yet take its name in vain when it suits. When they commit their
atrocities on a landscape that has inspired some of the finest poetry
and art in human history, there is almost no one left with an outlet for
protest. Even if the most dire predictions of the wildest prophets of
global warming were correct, these mindless acts of desecration would
have a negligible effect; but if they were not pointless they would not
qualify as a sacrifice. And so they will march on, littering the land
with their monstrous and useless symbols of power.
Look on their works, ye mighty, and despair.
John Brignell
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Might be some time till a wind farm at Romney Marsh can have an effect on eagle populations. In fact I'd say if it did we'd have plague proportions of them.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Grousemore said:
I take major exception to that Trevor.
Exactly what motives do you think I have?
Edward woodwood
Member
Grousemore said:
go on then
tell me what my motives are...
Tim
Grousemore
Senior Member
Jane Turner said:
I've amended my post; it wasn't aimed at you and apologies if you thought it was.
I was alluding to the motives of the people making money out of these tokens.
Grousemore
Senior Member
Tim Allwood said:
Sorry, I'm not a psychiatrist.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Grousemore said:
Accepted.
I wish the balance of funding was tipped more in favour of sites close to centres of population.
But I'd rather have windfarms in wild places than more of this
http://www.savearcticrefuge.org/sections/pr110305.html
Jane Turner
Well-known member
pduxon said:
I think a lot of that comes from a slight strange assumption that 100% of power has to be supplied by a single method Pete.
pduxon
Quacked up Member
Jane Turner said:
you are probably right.
I still think we have little choice but to continue with some usage of Nuclear, at least in the short term.
Combinations of wave, solar and wind may work in the longer term.
I still don't understand why Bush hasn't made it the patriotic thing to develop cars that run on a fuel that the US can control. I'd have thought 9/11 and the recent rises in oil prices would have helped him do this.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
I can't see any alternative to some nuclear generation either. Of course windfarms are somewhat easier to decomission after 50 years when we really crack nuclear fission, or solar generation.
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