The Last Stand of the English Red Squirrel, and my Red Squirrel Quest.... (1 Viewer)

[Martin Thomas]

Well... anyway good that I posted an image about this lovely species again to keep the discussion going

Thanks for your comment.

Here's a couple more pictures of red squirrels taken in my garden to make you go "Awww!"

Please excuse the quality of the image of the squirrel on the balcony but it's a screen grab from video. There was no enticing - just a very curious individual who appeared on our window sill then moved to the door as we opened it.

 

[maxfoto2003]

lovely images! aren't they cute with their 'hands' eating nuts

 

[Martin Thomas]

Thank you! They have incredibly long delicate 'fingers' which can manipulate very small items of food.

I've just seen one with the strangest combinations of tail markings today. Usually here they 'blonde' tipped or sometimes even all pale, perhaps with a hoop or too but today's visitor had a kind of mottled effect. Maybe somethingto do with it moulting? Typically my camera wasn't to hand.

Interestingly I heard Simon King comment on Springwatch that all young red squirrels have light coloured tails but I'm not sure that's the case with my local population as many of the adults have this colouration. Anyone care to comment?

 

[breffni]

leuco = white; oura = tail in greek. The genuine article apparently had/has a distinct white tail all year round that is not just the result of bleaching. Other sub species have various tail arrangements and tones of pelage - in eastern europe i have seen very dark indoviduals - almost black.

 

[Martin Thomas]

I had an even darker one in the garden this morning (another new visitor) but with pale tufts and a very pale tail with a dark streak running along its length. We have a small stately home and a castle about 5 miles from here and I suspect both may well have done their share of introductions in the past.

 

[Alan Hobson]

Hi All,

Apologies that I have been away from the thread for a while. This has been for a number of reasons, including my annual holiday in the Cairngorms [some of you may remember I used to do an annual 'Captivated by the Cairngorms' thread for BF]; another combined work/leisure trip away; battling to get an academic paper done for a deadline [made it with 30 seconds to spare!]; and - oddly since I have been a BF member since 2003 - difficulties in logging on during the last few weeks.

I return to see a long and interesting new debate has taken place on the thread! More of that below, but first things first:

Martin and Mariette [maxphoto2003] - excellent photos of Red Squirrels! Thanks for posting them.

It has to be said, that the quality of photos of Red squirrels posted on this thread has been outstanding - and I can say that without bias as I haven't been responsible for any of them!

Secondly, a quick Red squirrel report from the Cairngorms. The good news: the Reds are still thriving in Speyside/Central Highlands area - my girlfriend and I saw loads. However, the bad news is that Greys have advanced up the A9 corridor as far as Blair Atholl, which is on the southern tip of the central Highlands. As with sites in England, some Reds inside the area of Grey expansion are holding on - for example there is a remnant of a population at Scone Palace, apparently (which is well south of Blair Atholl).

Thirdly, quick comments on the recent debate on these pages. It would be fair to say that I am in broad agreement with the vies of Martin and the 'Colonel'. As I was reading Breffni's posts, I often had a reply in mind which I then read on to find either Martin or the Colonel went on to make.

Breffni, your posts were both interesting and erudite. However, I am sure that you would be the first to agree that this doesn't make them free from fault. In particular, I would comment on two things.

Firstly, I disagree firmly with you when you say that on this thread "there are a lot of opinions but not much science". I don't know whether you have had time to read all the near-300 posts on this thread, but anyone who manages to would notice this. The majority of them deal with observation, record, analysis and sometimes statistics too - all of which form important elements of scientific inquiry, and all of which are certainly more than mere opinion.

Secondly, I am not clear why the genetic impurity of the British Reds (your noting of a British genetic survival in Ireland is very interesting, by the way) means they are not worth conserving. To use a parallel, it is widely noted that the Scottish Wildcat population is no longer genetically pure. However, no-one says that we shouldn't bother about them - in fact the opposite. a new conservation strategy has just been launched for them.

Even genetically impure British reds are closer both in historical origin and genetically to the original british Red population than the Greys are.

 

[Farnboro John]

Hi All,

Apologies that I have been away from the thread for a while. This has been for a number of reasons, including my annual holiday in the Cairngorms [some of you may remember I used to do an annual 'Captivated by the Cairngorms' thread for BF]; another combined work/leisure trip away; battling to get an academic paper done for a deadline [made it with 30 seconds to spare!]; and - oddly since I have been a BF member since 2003 - difficulties in logging on during the last few weeks.

I return to see a long and interesting new debate has taken place on the thread! More of that below, but first things first:

Martin and Mariette [maxphoto2003] - excellent photos of Red Squirrels! Thanks for posting them.

It has to be said, that the quality of photos of Red squirrels posted on this thread has been outstanding - and I can say that without bias as I haven't been responsible for any of them!

Secondly, a quick Red squirrel report from the Cairngorms. The good news: the Reds are still thriving in Speyside/Central Highlands area - my girlfriend and I saw loads. However, the bad news is that Greys have advanced up the A9 corridor as far as Blair Atholl, which is on the southern tip of the central Highlands. As with sites in England, some Reds inside the area of Grey expansion are holding on - for example there is a remnant of a population at Scone Palace, apparently (which is well south of Blair Atholl).

Thirdly, quick comments on the recent debate on these pages. It would be fair to say that I am in broad agreement with the vies of Martin and the 'Colonel'. As I was reading Breffni's posts, I often had a reply in mind which I then read on to find either Martin or the Colonel went on to make.

Breffni, your posts were both interesting and erudite. However, I am sure that you would be the first to agree that this doesn't make them free from fault. In particular, I would comment on two things.

Firstly, I disagree firmly with you when you say that on this thread "there are a lot of opinions but not much science". I don't know whether you have had time to read all the near-300 posts on this thread, but anyone who manages to would notice this. The majority of them deal with observation, record, analysis and sometimes statistics too - all of which form important elements of scientific inquiry, and all of which are certainly more than mere opinion.

Secondly, I am not clear why the genetic impurity of the British Reds (your noting of a British genetic survival in Ireland is very interesting, by the way) means they are not worth conserving. To use a parallel, it is widely noted that the Scottish Wildcat population is no longer genetically pure. However, no-one says that we shouldn't bother about them - in fact the opposite. a new conservation strategy has just been launched for them.

Even genetically impure British reds are closer both in historical origin and genetically to the original british Red population than the Greys are.

Hear hear and far better put than I could manage.

John

 

[John Hague]

Earl Gray (not a Squirrel) and I will be driving up to Aberdeen this autumn heading for Shetland. I know there are Red Squirrel in Dundee, Camperdown Country Park and Templeton Woods are listed as places to see them but are there any specific areas in either that we could see them relatively quickly as we journy up? Any feeding stations would be good so we can bring along a bit of grub for them.

John

 

[Alan Hobson]

Farnboro John,

Thanks for the support, which is appreciated!


Jack Haggis,

The posts from people on this thread have covered many areas of Britain extremely well. Sadly the east coast of Scotland is not one of them! Nor have I been up the east coast there since I began my Red squirrel quest.

If anyone has any tips, do post them!

 

[Stewart J.]

Out and about birding along South Tyne this afternoon, 3 locations 3 Red sightings including the fellow below who we disturbed on a very minor road just above Eals first pic was a quick grab shot through car window then he posed on top of wall until would you credit another car (gamekeeper) came along and we had to move. The view is looking west over the South Tyne valley and hill behind and to the left is part of Geltsdale (RSPB)

This thread has been both a pleasure to read and to submit posts, thanks Alan for starting it.

ATB

Stewart

 

[breffni]

Hi All,

Breffni, your posts were both interesting and erudite. However, I am sure that you would be the first to agree that this doesn't make them free from fault. In particular, I would comment on two things.

Firstly, I disagree firmly with you when you say that on this thread "there are a lot of opinions but not much science". I don't know whether you have had time to read all the near-300 posts on this thread, but anyone who manages to would notice this. The majority of them deal with observation, record, analysis and sometimes statistics too - all of which form important elements of scientific inquiry, and all of which are certainly more than mere opinion.

Secondly, I am not clear why the genetic impurity of the British Reds (your noting of a British genetic survival in Ireland is very interesting, by the way) means they are not worth conserving. To use a parallel, it is widely noted that the Scottish Wildcat population is no longer genetically pure. However, no-one says that we shouldn't bother about them - in fact the opposite. a new conservation strategy has just been launched for them.

Even genetically impure British reds are closer both in historical origin and genetically to the original british Red population than the Greys are.

For sure hybrid reds would be preferable to the greys, who evolved in the much hotter evolutionary forge of the north american continent - my point was that a national cull would be useless. I would suggest that a lot more genetic research is needed, possibly a captive breeding programme to safeguard what remnant of the origional red population is there (possibly based on the Irish population should the evidence bear this out) and investing in a biological control method for greys (though it should be noted that a successful program would probably involve introducing genetically modified greys into the wild population).

 

[Martin Thomas]

Good news (unless you're a grey squirrel).

 

[Alan Hobson]

Out and about birding along South Tyne this afternoon, 3 locations 3 Red sightings including the fellow below who we disturbed on a very minor road just above Eals first pic was a quick grab shot through car window then he posed on top of wall until would you credit another car (gamekeeper) came along and we had to move. The view is looking west over the South Tyne valley and hill behind and to the left is part of Geltsdale (RSPB)

This thread has been both a pleasure to read and to submit posts, thanks Alan for starting it.

ATB

Stewart

Stewart,

I loved your photos of the Red squirrel on the wall! Not only excellent shots but an unusual pose for a Red, with the only trees visible being in the distance (although I realise there may have been some just out of shot, next to the road!).

Glad to see that the Reds are still flourising in the Geltsdale/South Tyne area.

Thanks also for your kind comments about the thread.

 

[June Atkinson]

Squirrel on the wall

Out and about birding along South Tyne this afternoon, 3 locations 3 Red sightings including the fellow below who we disturbed on a very minor road just above Eals first pic was a quick grab shot through car window then he posed on top of wall until would you credit another car (gamekeeper) came along and we had to move. The view is looking west over the South Tyne valley and hill behind and to the left is part of Geltsdale (RSPB)

This thread has been both a pleasure to read and to submit posts, thanks Alan for starting it.

ATB

Stewart

It may not be Hadrian's Wall, but this delightful squirrel looks as though he is just about to go on Sentry duty - a bit like the Meerkats!!
Lovely photos; thanks for sharing.

 

[Martin Thomas]

A paper just published in Conservation Genetics gives support to breffni's suggestion that the British red population is by no means 'pure' and goes on to show that the Irish line has also been diluted by British introductions. That said, it would seem that the Irish stock may well form the best genetic basis for potential re-introductions to the mainland but clearly other factors which affect suitability would also have to be taken into account.


Finnegan, L.A., Edwards, C.J., and J.M. Rochford. 2008. Origin of, and conservation units in, the Irish red squirrel ( Sciurus vulgaris ) population. Conservation Genetics 9 (1099–1109).

Abstract:
Knowledge of genetic relationships among wildlife populations is fundamental to their conservation, particularly where translocations are concerned. This study involved a survey of mitochondrial DNA variation in the Irish red squirrel population. Our main aims were: (1) to determine whether the Irish red squirrel population is distinct from that found in Britain, given known translocations that took place from Britain in the 1800’s; and (2) whether inclusion of Irish data into a reanalysis of European red squirrel data could reveal patterns of postglacial spread in Ireland. We found evidence that the current Irish red squirrel population may be a mixture of native and translocated stock, and relationships between Irish and European haplotypes supported a number of colonisation events of the island. Although only one haplotype was common to both Ireland and Britain, it is probable that the most common haplotypes in Ireland are British introductions that have since become extinct in Britain. There was a significant regional genetic structure in Ireland (P < 0.001), as well as between all Irish and British regions. Although it is likely that the red squirrel will not be fundamental in tracing the colonisation of Ireland by mammals, the data demonstrated that individual regions within Ireland, as well as the Irish population as a whole, are distinct both from the British population and from each other and, therefore, these populations should be treated as separate Management Units (MU) in conservation strategies.

 

[ikw101]

I was up at Dodd wood recently and I was quite surprised at the number of dark tailed individuals. Previously the only other dark tailed reds I've come across have been the Formby reds on the Lancashire coast. The origin of these has always been a bit dubious years ago somebody told me they originally came from Scandanavian stock whether or not this is correct I don't know.
If we're looking for genetically pure English Red Squirrels the ones living on the islands within Poole harbour are probably as close as we'll get.

 

[Martin Thomas]

I'm seeing a raft of dark tailed individuals at the moment along with some very pale variants and even some marbled ones. Ear tufts range from none to pale. There were 7 individuals here again a couple of mornings ago but they are starting to appear less tollerant of one another (suggesting they are family groups) and no doubt the males may well begin to disperse soon but it will be interesting to see if the continuous feed stock makes a difference.

I haven't been up to Dodd this year but sadly there have been number of sightings of greys around Bassenthwaite so I'm not sure how long the reds will hold on if it continues.

Dark morphs are commonly seen in Europe and the ones at Formby are almost certainly introduced. Has anyone any up to date information about the situation there following the outbreak of squirrel pox?

I'm not convinced the red squirrels living on the Poole harbour islands will be genetically pure 'English' to be honest as it's just as likely introductions took place there as anywhere. The paper I mentioned below certainly exposes widespread introductions although I need to dig out an earlier publication which may have more detail purely about the English population.

 

[Alan Hobson]

I have just returned from a trip up to Northumberland, visiting historical sites for the historical trust I work for p/t. Red Squirrel-wise, I found a mixture of good news and bad news up there - mainly bad news, sadly.

Good news first. I saw a Red Squirrel up in a beech tree, eating the beech nuts, at Chillingham Castle, where the Greys haven't reached yet.

It was good to see that the Red was making good use of this deciduous tree. They are well known to prefer coniferous trees, but the preference shouldn't be overstated, as this example and others show. Also, the more the Reds make maximum use of the terrain around them, the more chance they have of holding out as long as possible. Finally, it is all the better to see it making good use of a beech tree, as I read once that Reds are supposed to particularly dislike beech trees.

A minor bit of other good news is that I was talking to a lady who works at Prudhoe Castle (one of the many fine castles in Northumberland!) and she saw a Red chase a Grey away when they clashed in her farm (her husband promptly then shot the Grey). Good to see that the Reds can stand up for themselves (more often it can be the other way round: the Greys chasing off the Reds. This gave rise in the past to the myth that the Greys actually attack and kill the Reds).

However, most of the news was bad. Firstly, I travelled all over Northumberland, and the Red at Chillingham was the only one I saw. A few years ago they would have been more abundant and widespread in the county.

Secondly, regular readers of this thread (and others who look back) will recall that a couple of years ago in an earlier post, Wallington Hall was recommended as a very good spot for Reds. Sadly, just a few months ago the Greys, and therefore the parapox, arrived. The Reds have been decimated. There are a few left, but I didn't see any.

Thirdly, I saw what looked like dead Greys on the road both just south and even just north of Alnwick, showing that they have made heavy inroads into previously grey-free areas.

There is increasing talk of Kielder being used as a last stand in Northumberland, which does not bode well for the Reds elsewhere in the county.

 

[NoSpringChicken]

I have been following this thread with interest and it will be tragic if Red Squirrels disappear altogether from England.

I have just returned from a week in Dumfries and Galloway and saw loads of them there. It took me a while to get used to saying "Look a squirrel" rather than "Look a Red Squirrel" as every Squirrel is Red. The cottage we stayed at had them running round on the grass outside and we could watch them every day. There were no feeders there so I guess the habitat just suits them.

I attach a couple of rather poor shots taken from the cottage windows.

Ron

 

[Alan Hobson]

Hi Ron,

Very glad to hear that the Reds are thriving still in Dumfries and Galloway, despite the danger of a two pronged Grey advance into the region.

Glad too that you enjoy this thread - and thanks for the photos, which show two very endearing Red squirrels!