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The mysterious Monsieur Longuemare in Longuemare's Sunangel … (1 Viewer)

Björn Bergenholtz

... earlier a k a "Calalp"
Anyone of you guys know who Monsieur Longuemare is, commemorated in the Common name Longuemare's Sunangel for the species (or subspecies) Heliangelus (amethysticollis) clarisse LONGUEMARE 1841? This Hummingbird was described by "M. Gouye de Longuemare" himself in the French Journal Revue Zoologique par La Société Cuvierienne 1841 (Attached).

Does this short article reveal anything of who he was or what he did (more than the obvious, describing it) to deserve a Sunangel of "his own"?

For example, what does the first sentences mean:
"Cette jolie espèce, destinée à figurer dans une des prochaines livrasion du Magasin de Zoologie, a été découverte à Santa-Fé de Bogota. Voici ses caractères essentiels, que nous extrayons de la notice que M. de Longuemare nous a remise pour le magasin."
With only limited knowledge (close to none!) of French I hope that any of Bird Forums readers feel like translating this quote for me!? If so, please as accurate as possible, as I might need to quote it myself in Swedish. And don´t hesitate to remark on any errors that I might have done transcribing it.

It´s been suggested that we´re talking about the fairly unknown French (amateur?) ornithologist (M.= Monsieur) Mr. Henri Victor Goüye de Longuemare (18231890?) ... even if he (in my opinion) seem to have been a bit young?

Or is he ,and it, the same Longuemare as in the scientific name of Little Hermit Phaethornis longuemareus Lesson 1832 a k a "Longuemare’s Hermit"? (It does seem a bit likely, two Humming-birds whitin a decade?) And is there any truth behind Beolens/Watkins claim (in Whose Bird? 2003) that the latter is named after the French military and archaeologist Alphonse Pierre François Le Touze de Longuemare (1803–1881)?

Are they maybe the same person? And if not; were they related in any way?

Maybe both those Humming-birds in their respective Common and Scientific name, commemorate the same person? If so; who´s he?

Anyone know?

--------------
PS. Not to be confused with the earlier French lawyer and Historian Gouye de Longuemare (1715–1763).
 

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Björn Bergenholtz

... earlier a k a "Calalp"
Continuation of Post Nr. #1 ...

The year after he wrote a longer account for the same species: Gouye de Longuemare. 1842. "O. Clarisse": Revue et Magasin de Zoologie dʼAnatomie Comparée …. (Livrasion 3) 18: 1-2, plate 26. (Attached)

Link to full volume (here)
 

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Björn Bergenholtz

... earlier a k a "Calalp"
Continuation of Post No. #1 ...

And here´s the type description of Phaethornis longuemareus LESSON 1832 ... (attached)

Link to full volume (here)
 

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l_raty

laurent raty
Gouÿe de Longuemare, 1841, about Ornismya Clarisse:
"Cette jolie espèce, destinée à figurer dans une des prochaines livraison du Magasin de Zoologie, a été découverte à Santa-Fé de Bogota. Voici ses caractères essentiels, que nous extrayons de la notice que M. de Longuemare nous a remise pour le magasin."
"This pretty species, intended to appear in one of the next deliveries of the Magasin de Zoologie, was discovered at Santa-Fé de Bogota. Here are its main characters, that we extract from the note that Mr. de Longuemare handed us for the magazine."
The bird itself is dedicated to "madame Parzudaki". Clarisse Moreuil, wife of Charles Parzudaki? Parzudaki was "l'un des principaux marchands naturalistes de Paris, à l'époque de la découverte de cet oiseau" (one of the main naturalist traders in Paris, at the time of this bird's discovery; Mulsant & Verreaux, 1876).

Lesson, 1832, about Phaethornis longuemareus:
"Elle habite les environs de Cayenne, d'où on en envoya deux individus en tout semblables à ceux de M. de Longuemare, qui nous a procuré une foule d'espèces qu'on peut retrouver dans sa curieuse collection d'oiseaux-mouches, remarquable par la fraîcheur et la belle préparation des individus."
"It inhabits the surroundings of Cayenne, whence two individuals were sent, in all respects similar to those of Mr. de Longuemare, who procured us a host of species that can be found in his curious collection of hummingbirds, remarkable by the freshness and the nice preparation of the individuals."

Lesson, 1938, about Ornismya fanny:
"Nous donnons à ces oiseaux, dont nous ignorons la patrie, le nom de madame Fanny gorge de Longuemares, dont le mari possède la collection la mieux préparée sans contredit d'Oiseaux-mouches, et auquel nous unissent les liens d'une vieille amitié."
"We give to these birds, of which we don't know the homeland, the name of Mrs. Fanny gorge de Longuemares [sic], whose husband possesses unquestionably the best prepared collection of hummingbirds, and to whom we are attached by the bonds of an old friendship."
The name is misspelled ("gorge de Longuemares"), but it's hard to believe that it could not be the same.

If Lesson's birds are dedicated to the same de Longuemare who described the Sunangel and to his wife, this clearly cannot be Henry Victor Gouÿe de Longuemare (1823–1890), as he was only 9 in 1832, and 15 in 1938. Could it be his father?
Father: Agathe-François Gouÿe de Longuemare, born [Birth certificate] 6 Feb 1792 in Versailles.
Son: Henry Victor Gouÿe de Longuemare, born [Birth certificate] 4 Jan 1823 in Paris, from Agathe-François Gouÿe de Longuemare, and Françoise Victoire Rosalie Joséphine Marsy (? not too sure of the spelling). "Fanny" is a diminutive of Françoise.
(Both were made "Chevaliers de la Légion d'Honneur", which is why they appear on this website.)
Offered without warranty of any kind... ;)
 

l_raty

laurent raty
Mulsant & Verreaux, 1974, about Pygmornis Longuemareus (Lesson):
Cet oiseau a été dédié par Lesson à M. Goüye de Longuemare, naturaliste, à qui l'on doit la description de plusieurs espèces nouvelles d'Oiseaux-Mouches. M. de Longuemare était né en 1790 ; il est mort en 1866, chevalier de la Légion d'honneur, et sous-chef de bureau en retraite, du ministère de la marine.
"This bird was dedicated by Lesson to Mr. Goüye de Longuemare, naturalist, to whom we owe the description of several new species of hummingbirds. Mr. de Longuemare was born in 1790; he died in 1866, chevalier de la Légion d'honneur, and a retired deputy head of office ("sous-chef de bureau"), of the ministry of marine."

The French database Leonore offers an access to the nominative files of all the persons nominated or promoted in the Ordre de la Légion d'honneur since 1802 and deceased before 1977. This database has only two "Gouye de Longuemare": Agathe-François and his son Henry Victor (as cited above). Agathe-François was born in 1792 and not 1790, hence M&V would have lacked precision on this point. But he was indeed "sous-chef de bureau des chiourmes et hôpitaux", and attached to the ministry of marine. And according to this genealogy website (which otherwise offers nothing for free), he died in 1866.


Is it, maybe, of any relevance that Mulsant & Verreaux, 1876 in fact spell his name: "Longuemarre"?
Yes, I saw that too, but in the index of the same book, they wrote it with a single r. I think this is most likely a mistake by M&V.
 
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l_raty

laurent raty
Clearly still the same person. (Versailles is in the department of Yvelines.)

("Gouÿe de Longuemare", wherever you place the umlaut, and whether you use one or two 'r', is certainly not a frequent name; "Agathe-François" is a first-name combination that I have never seen anywhere else--"Agathe" is usually female, "François" is male.)
 
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Björn Bergenholtz

... earlier a k a "Calalp"
Scrutiny wanted from as many as possible!

First of all, once again: Thanks to Laurent for a Massive help!

But doesn´t this look a bit like we´ve been doing some little pioneering!? Compared with my Post No. 1, this would mean that we´ve suddenly stumbled upon a Monsieur "Longuemare" (i. e. Gouÿe de Longuemare) that (at least) I´ve never heard of before (nor seen mentioned in other sources of reference)!?

Doesn´t this mean that we, based on (Laurent's translation of) Mulsant & Verreaux's explanation of the dedication of longuemareus: "This bird was dedicated by Lesson to Mr. Goüye de Longuemare, naturalist, to whom we owe the description of several new species of hummingbirds. Mr. de Longuemare was born in 1790; he died in 1866, chevalier de la Légion d'honneur, and a retired deputy head of office ("sous-chef de bureau"), of the ministry of marine." …

and the rest of this thread, that it looks like the Scientific names of:
● Little Hermit Phaethornis (atrimentalis) longuemareus LESSON 1832 a k a "Longuemare's Hermit"
● Western Violet-backed Sunbird Anthreptes longuemarei LESSON 1833

As well as the Common name:
● Longuemare's Sunangel Heliangelus (amethysticollis) clarisse LONGUEMARE 1841

most likely commemorate the French naturalist (and Humming-bird enthusiast) Agathe François Gouÿe de Longuemare (1792–1866) … whose Christian names sometimes is written, with hyphen, as "Agathe-François" (mostly as a way to clearly separate the two Christian names from the long "three-parted" Family name). Born (even if not in 1790, but) 6 Feb 1792 in Yvelines, Versailles … who also was "sous-chef de bereau des chiourmes et hôpitaux" (whatever that is?) and attached to both the Ministry of Marine and the Légion d'honneur … and who died 12 February 1866, in Paris.

------------------------------------------------------
Not to be confused with: neither his Son: Henry Victor Gouÿe de Longuemare (1823–1890), whose first Christian name sometimes is written Henri [Born 4 Jan 1823 in Paris, who was too young, much too young, to be the person in question] nor the contemporary; "French military and archaeologist Alphonse Pierre François Le Touze de Longuemare (1803–1881)" [whomever he was?] and nor the earlier French lawyer and Historian Gouye de Longuemare (1715–1763).
------------------------------------------------------
Opinions and feedback is warmly welcomed … if anyone think otherwise, find any cracks in this argument or know of anything contradicting, please, don´t hesitate to reply.
------------------------------------------------------
PS. Where´s our friend James Jobling when we need him?
 
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l_raty

laurent raty
Born (even if not in 1790, but) 6 Feb 1792 in Yvelines, Versailles … who also was "sous-chef de bereau des chiourmes et hôpitaux" (whatever that is?) and attached to both the Ministry of Marine and the Légion d'honneur … and who died 12 February 1866, in Paris.
I'd write "in Versailles, Yvelines", rather than the other way around (Versailles is the town, Yvelines the department).
"sous-chef de bureau des chiourmes et hôpitaux": bureau=office; sous-chef=the second important person, just below the head of office; chiourmes=galley slaves, convicts; hôpitaux=hospitals. No idea what his actual work was like--probably administration? (It would probably be enough to say that he worked for the ministry of marine. I insisted on the position above, mainly because it supported the idea that the two sources gave info about the same person.)
"attached to the Légion d'honneur " sounds a bit strange. The Order of the Legion of Honour is a decoration. He was made "Chevalier": Knight of the Legion of Honour. (This is the lowest degree in the Order.)

"French military and archaeologist Alphonse Pierre François Le Touze de Longuemare (1803–1881)" [whomever he was?]
Alphonse-Pierre-François Le Touzé de Longuemar
 
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Daniel Philippe

Well-known member
"sous-chef de bureau des chiourmes et hôpitaux": bureau=office; sous-chef=the second important person, just below the head of office; chiourmes=galley slaves, convicts; hôpitaux=hospitals. No idea what his actual work was like--probably administration?

My two cents, FWIW:

Within the « Département de la Marine et des Colonies » (Ministry of Navy and colonies), there were several « Bureaux » (Agencies). One of them was the « Bureau des hôpitaux et des chiourmes » (Overseas hospitals and prisons agency). His boss was the « Chef du Bureau ». However, « Sous-chef de bureau » (not « Sous-chef du bureau ») is simply an administrative rank, not necessarily the deputy of the « Chef du Bureau ».
 

Björn Bergenholtz

... earlier a k a "Calalp"
Ok, guys … even if "only" (the ever helpful) Daniel and Laurent responded …

It´s time to (at least try to) close this case as well!

● Little Hermit Phaethornis (atrimentalis) longuemareus LESSON 1832 a k a "Longuemare's Hermit"
● Western Violet-backed Sunbird Anthreptes longuemarei LESSON 1833
... and the Common name:
● Longuemare's Sunangel Heliangelus (amethysticollis) clarisse LONGUEMARE 1841

most likely commemorate the French Colonial adminstrator (in Paris, France, attached to the Ministry of Marine), amateur naturalist, long term friend of Lesson (and Humming-bird enthusiast) as well as Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur (Knight of the Legion of Honour) François Gouÿe de Longuemare (1792–1866) whose full name was Agathe François Gouÿe de Longuemare (Christian names sometimes hyphenated as "Agathe-François").

Born 6 Feb 1792 in Versailles, Yvelines, France … who died 12 February 1866, in Paris.

I hope those formulations are more appropriate?

------------------------------------------------------
Not to be confused with: neither his Son; Henry Victor Gouÿe de Longuemare (1823–1890), whose first Christian name sometimes is written Henri [Born 4 Jan 1823 in Paris, who was too young, much too young, to be the person in question] nor any of the (quite a few) other contemporary French "de Longuemare's".
------------------------------------------------------

If no-one have any other claims … ?

(Gouÿe) de Longuemare … over and out!
 
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Björn Bergenholtz

... earlier a k a "Calalp"
Laurent ...

... you´re just as "never happy" as I think everyone should be!

Better to point at any weak parts than leaving the field open for all sorts of possible misconceptions. I actually saw this one coming ... I had exactly the same problem, understanding but not knowing how to Phrase it in English. That´s why I added that lame "in Paris, France, ..."

But I got the drift of it; he wasn´t stationed in any Colony, he was simply a "common bureaucrat" or "desk-jockey/clerc", administrator of some Colonial//Marine matters, from his desk in Paris ... and I will make this chrystal clear in Swedish.

Just hope everybody else reading this will understand it as well, formulating it (not citing me) in a proper way.

Cheers!
 
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Taphrospilus

Well-known member
Looks like his wife was an artist if we read here

Je dois le dessin de cet insecte intéressant au pinceau de madame Fanny de Longuemare, à qui la science est déja redevable de traveaux remarquables, tant par la chaleur du coloris que par l'extactitude serupuleuse avec laquelle cette dame traité les différentes sujets qui lui on été confiés.

And here her plate.

She was discussed already here:

Lesson, 1938, about Ornismya fanny:

"We give to these birds, of which we don't know the homeland, the name of Mrs. Fanny gorge de Longuemares [sic], whose husband possesses unquestionably the best prepared collection of hummingbirds, and to whom we are attached by the bonds of an old friendship."
The name is misspelled ("gorge de Longuemares"), but it's hard to believe that it could not be the same.

Father: Agathe-François Gouÿe de Longuemare, born [Birth certificate] 6 Feb 1792 in Versailles.
Son: Henry Victor Gouÿe de Longuemare, born [Birth certificate] 4 Jan 1823 in Paris, from Agathe-François Gouÿe de Longuemare, and Françoise Victoire Rosalie Joséphine Marsy (? not too sure of the spelling). "Fanny" is a diminutive of Françoise.

..and supported by here.
 
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Taphrospilus

Well-known member
Here p. 7 of 31 his death entry (392). But apart from the fact that he died in 6th arrondissement of Paris nothing new. But we can read again his wifes name.

In his death record I see his wife only as Victoire Rosalie Joséphine. And if I follow the link here (already provided by Björn) and go to the next page I conclude she was born 22. March 1796 Paris (Seine) and they married 20. April 1822.
 
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Taphrospilus

Well-known member
fanny

Apart from the fact that the birth year may added (my last post) I think the key may need modification:

fanny
Françoise ‘Fanny’ Victoire Rosalie Joséphine Gouÿe de Longuemare née Marsy (fl. 1823) wife of French naturalist Agathe-François Gouÿe de Longuemare (Myrtis, subsp. Tangara larvata).

According OD Aglaia Fanny


Cette jolie espèce, à laquelle nous donnons le nom de l'épouse de M. Wilson,...

So subsp. Tangara larvata is the same Fanny as:

Frances ‘Fanny’ Wilson (fl. 1846) wife of British trochilidist Edward Wilson (subsp. Thalurania colombica).


And already mentioned here:

Not to be confused with the "Fanny" behind the following Birds:
● the sub-specis Tangara larvata fanny LAFRESNAYE 1847 as "Aglaia Fanny": "Cete jolie espèce, à laquelle nous donnons le nom lʼépouse de M. Wilson, …"

Somehow in harmony with key entry (OD here):

franciscae
● Original dual spelling of specific name Granatellus francescae Baird, 1865.
● Frances “Fanny” Wilson (fl. 1846) wife of British trochilidist Edward Wilson (subsp. Tangara larvata)

(even if I do not understand what this means Original dual spelling of specific name Granatellus francescae Baird, 1865 in terms of the etymology.)

But I got it. francescae for Frances Jane Grayson. But I would name it wrong spelling instead of dual but I am not a native speaker. At least it confused me.
 
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Björn Bergenholtz

... earlier a k a "Calalp"
...

(even if I do not understand what this means Original dual spelling of specific name Granatellus francescae Baird, 1865 in terms of the etymology.)

But I got it. francescae for Frances Jane Grayson. But I would name it wrong spelling instead of dual but I am not a native speaker. At least it confused me.
francescae as in:
• the Tres Marias Red-breasted Chat Granatellus venustus francescae BAIRD 1865, as "Granatellus francescæ" (in the OD itself, on p.232, here) as well listed as "fransiscæ" (on the preceding page, p.231)*

Thereby, Martin; nope, the Key's choice of word is not "wrong" as you suggested, but fully correct, and truly dual (as in double/doubled, two versions of the same name, at the same time, in the same work).

Björn

_______________________________
*thus not on pp. "261,262" as claimed in Avibase
 
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