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The same or different? The views through HT and SF Compared (1 Viewer)

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
In the months since the announcement of the SF, from time to time people have wondered about the quality of its view compared with HT’s. I am one of those people with an interest in a holistic comparison of the views produced by the two optical systems (those interested in a specification comparison need to visit the Zeiss website) and for me the word ‘quality’ in this context doesn’t so much mean ‘good’ or ‘bad’, but the nature of the view, its essence or ‘flavour’, if you will.

One of the Bird Forum regulars memorably called this sort of consideration ‘voodoo optics’ but it has a basis in the optical systems the binoculars use. At the heart of the HT are Abbe-Koenig prisms which achieve their purpose by virtue of total internal reflection, while the Schmidt-Pechan prisms that drive SF utilise a dielectic reflective coating on one surface.

The question then, is whether the prisms endow both models with something that the other doesn’t possess.

Armed with this question in mind I have toured the local countryside in South Yorkshire (my home county) and North Derbyshire to the west, famous for its landscapes called the Dark Peak (peatland habitat) and White Peak (limestone habitat). I took with me 8x42 HTs and SFs and glassed a series of rural, suburban and urban landscapes to compare and contrast the two models.

I had done something similar with the FL 8x42 and HT a couple of years ago and soon discovered that HT markedly improved on the FL’s reproduction of reds and associated tones, without having an over-Photoshopped look of artificially enhanced colour. In fact the HT has a stunning ability with regard to the separation of colour tones. A wild Scottish hillside above the sea in autumn has an enormous number of tones of reds, gingers and browns on the hill and below it a zone of yellow-orange lichen, with a range of brown sea-weeds in the sea. The HT easily separates all of these ‘brown’ tones and allows me to more easily spot brown Otters amongst the brown sea-weed.

Back to places near my home town, the first and most obvious conclusion, is that both have the ‘Zeiss view’, regarded as neutral and realistic by some and on the cold side by others. I put this down to the T* coatings and the efforts of Nicholas Benoit in Wetzlar, whose job it is to continually update them.

However after swapping between them time and time again, a subtle but constant and reliable difference did begin to emerge. The problem is, can I describe it accurately?

Trying to use as few words as possible: HT has a subtle mellowness to its colour palette that, as I have described above, still allows it to easily separate closely-related colour tones. SF, on the other hand, has a subtle liveliness to its colours without being the slightest bit harsh. To be absolutely clear about this, I am not describing HT as lacking clarity, its more about how the clarity is delivered. HT is a little more relaxed and SF a little more excitable. I fear I am drifting into ‘wine-tasting-speak’ here but actually that’s not inappropriate when the question set in paragraph one referred to a possible difference in ‘flavour’ between the two models.

If I can be allowed another analogy I might say that the HT has a hint of a clear autumn day to its view, and SF a hint of a clear spring one.

As usual, which you prefer, is up to you.

Lee
 

Sagittarius

Well-known member
I've always preferred an autumn day to a spring day, Lee. |=)|
But I like both; thanks for the comparison.
At least, this comparison shouldn't cause an uproar among the Big Green fans! :t:
 

Maljunulo

Well-known member
I've always preferred an autumn day to a spring day, Lee. |=)|
But I like both; thanks for the comparison.
At least, this comparison shouldn't cause an uproar among the Big Green fans! :t:

Never mind ... I don't think I read carefully enough before responding.

Sorry.
 
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Torview

Registered User
Supporter
Lee,

how about the 3d effect ?, which I find more pronounced with AK prisms, and what about panning and focus speed ?

Cheers.

John.
 

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
...but will you jump ship Lee? ;)

HN

Put it like this, its my 65th birthday on Friday.
This is quite a landmark and I hope to celebrate it in several different ways over the next week or so.
I have high hopes that optical and photographic gear might play a part........:king:

Lee
 

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Lee,

how about the 3d effect ?, which I find more pronounced with AK prisms, and what about panning and focus speed ?

Cheers.

John.

Hya John

Actually I don't notice 3-D effects and perhaps for similar reasons I don't notice rolling ball, so panning with both is fine for me (as it was with the EL too).

SF focus speed is noticeably faster than HT.

Lee
 

[email protected]

Well-known member
Supporter
In the months since the announcement of the SF, from time to time people have wondered about the quality of its view compared with HT’s. I am one of those people with an interest in a holistic comparison of the views produced by the two optical systems (those interested in a specification comparison need to visit the Zeiss website) and for me the word ‘quality’ in this context doesn’t so much mean ‘good’ or ‘bad’, but the nature of the view, its essence or ‘flavour’, if you will.

One of the Bird Forum regulars memorably called this sort of consideration ‘voodoo optics’ but it has a basis in the optical systems the binoculars use. At the heart of the HT are Abbe-Koenig prisms which achieve their purpose by virtue of total internal reflection, while the Schmidt-Pechan prisms that drive SF utilise a dielectic reflective coating on one surface.

The question then, is whether the prisms endow both models with something that the other doesn’t possess.

Armed with this question in mind I have toured the local countryside in South Yorkshire (my home county) and North Derbyshire to the west, famous for its landscapes called the Dark Peak (peatland habitat) and White Peak (limestone habitat). I took with me 8x42 HTs and SFs and glassed a series of rural, suburban and urban landscapes to compare and contrast the two models.

I had done something similar with the FL 8x42 and HT a couple of years ago and soon discovered that HT markedly improved on the FL’s reproduction of reds and associated tones, without having an over-Photoshopped look of artificially enhanced colour. In fact the HT has a stunning ability with regard to the separation of colour tones. A wild Scottish hillside above the sea in autumn has an enormous number of tones of reds, gingers and browns on the hill and below it a zone of yellow-orange lichen, with a range of brown sea-weeds in the sea. The HT easily separates all of these ‘brown’ tones and allows me to more easily spot brown Otters amongst the brown sea-weed.

Back to places near my home town, the first and most obvious conclusion, is that both have the ‘Zeiss view’, regarded as neutral and realistic by some and on the cold side by others. I put this down to the T* coatings and the efforts of Nicholas Benoit in Wetzlar, whose job it is to continually update them.

However after swapping between them time and time again, a subtle but constant and reliable difference did begin to emerge. The problem is, can I describe it accurately?

Trying to use as few words as possible: HT has a subtle mellowness to its colour palette that, as I have described above, still allows it to easily separate closely-related colour tones. SF, on the other hand, has a subtle liveliness to its colours without being the slightest bit harsh. To be absolutely clear about this, I am not describing HT as lacking clarity, its more about how the clarity is delivered. HT is a little more relaxed and SF a little more excitable. I fear I am drifting into ‘wine-tasting-speak’ here but actually that’s not inappropriate when the question set in paragraph one referred to a possible difference in ‘flavour’ between the two models.

If I can be allowed another analogy I might say that the HT has a hint of a clear autumn day to its view, and SF a hint of a clear spring one.

As usual, which you prefer, is up to you.

Lee
Two fine binoculars. I don't think there is too much difference in prism performance anymore at this level of binocular. The SP will perform ,as well as, the AK under most conditions. I would bet the subtle differences you are seeing is just a small difference in type of coatings Zeiss used on each.
 

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Two fine binoculars. I don't think there is too much difference in prism performance anymore at this level of binocular. The SP will perform ,as well as, the AK under most conditions. I would bet the subtle differences you are seeing is just a small difference in type of coatings Zeiss used on each.

HI Dennis

Regarding light transmission through the prisms, I guess with up to date dielectric coatings you might be right that the difference is minimal.

And then there is the possibility of differences in the T* coating which you are right to say could be contributing.

But some of the difference in the character of the view might be due to the difference between a dielectric coating and no coating at all.

Lee
 

brocknroller

A professed porromaniac
United States
In the months since the announcement of the SF, from time to time people have wondered about the quality of its view compared with HT’s. I am one of those people with an interest in a holistic comparison of the views produced by the two optical systems (those interested in a specification comparison need to visit the Zeiss website) and for me the word ‘quality’ in this context doesn’t so much mean ‘good’ or ‘bad’, but the nature of the view, its essence or ‘flavour’, if you will.

One of the Bird Forum regulars memorably called this sort of consideration ‘voodoo optics’ but it has a basis in the optical systems the binoculars use. At the heart of the HT are Abbe-Koenig prisms which achieve their purpose by virtue of total internal reflection, while the Schmidt-Pechan prisms that drive SF utilise a dielectic reflective coating on one surface.

The question then, is whether the prisms endow both models with something that the other doesn’t possess.

Armed with this question in mind I have toured the local countryside in South Yorkshire (my home county) and North Derbyshire to the west, famous for its landscapes called the Dark Peak (peatland habitat) and White Peak (limestone habitat). I took with me 8x42 HTs and SFs and glassed a series of rural, suburban and urban landscapes to compare and contrast the two models.

I had done something similar with the FL 8x42 and HT a couple of years ago and soon discovered that HT markedly improved on the FL’s reproduction of reds and associated tones, without having an over-Photoshopped look of artificially enhanced colour. In fact the HT has a stunning ability with regard to the separation of colour tones. A wild Scottish hillside above the sea in autumn has an enormous number of tones of reds, gingers and browns on the hill and below it a zone of yellow-orange lichen, with a range of brown sea-weeds in the sea. The HT easily separates all of these ‘brown’ tones and allows me to more easily spot brown Otters amongst the brown sea-weed.

Back to places near my home town, the first and most obvious conclusion, is that both have the ‘Zeiss view’, regarded as neutral and realistic by some and on the cold side by others. I put this down to the T* coatings and the efforts of Nicholas Benoit in Wetzlar, whose job it is to continually update them.

However after swapping between them time and time again, a subtle but constant and reliable difference did begin to emerge. The problem is, can I describe it accurately?

Trying to use as few words as possible: HT has a subtle mellowness to its colour palette that, as I have described above, still allows it to easily separate closely-related colour tones. SF, on the other hand, has a subtle liveliness to its colours without being the slightest bit harsh. To be absolutely clear about this, I am not describing HT as lacking clarity, its more about how the clarity is delivered. HT is a little more relaxed and SF a little more excitable. I fear I am drifting into ‘wine-tasting-speak’ here but actually that’s not inappropriate when the question set in paragraph one referred to a possible difference in ‘flavour’ between the two models.

If I can be allowed another analogy I might say that the HT has a hint of a clear autumn day to its view, and SF a hint of a clear spring one.

As usual, which you prefer, is up to you.

Lee

Lee,

I wish you had tried to use as few words as possible in the 434-word introduction before your mini-comparo. ;)

I did understand your previous comparison between the FL and HT, but to help me understand the more subtle differences between the HT and SF you outlined above, I'm going to need the assistance of both Wofgang Puck for the food and wine "flavor" palette and German painter Gerhard Richter for the color palette.

To answer your question: Can I describe it accurately? For me, at least, the answer is "No." Your mixed metaphors had me scratching my head and checking for lice. Thought I found one, but it turned out to be a flea.

Then again, it could be my lack of refined taste. If somebody put two wine glasses in front of me and asked to me to tell which one was a Cabernet Sauvignon and which was a Merlot, I wouldn't have a clue. If he added a glass of Ripple, that I would be able to identify. So it's probably my fault not yours, I lack a refined palette for wine tasting. :smoke:

I'm better with similes. I could tell subtle differences btwn the images of the 8x42 TED, the 8x32 TED, and the 8x30 M7. Compared to its smaller sibling, the 8x42 has better contrast like polarized sunglasses, the 8x32 is "sharper" like an aged Vermont cheddar, and the 8x30 M7 is at least as "sharp" but has richer colors like Andy Warhol's Fauve photos of Marilyn Monroe.

Brock
 

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Lee,

I wish you had tried to use as few words as possible in the 434-word introduction before your mini-comparo. ;)


To answer your question: Can I describe it accurately? For me, at least, the answer is "No."



I'm better with similes. I could tell subtle differences btwn the images of the 8x42 TED, the 8x32 TED, and the 8x30 M7. Compared to its smaller sibling, the 8x42 has better contrast like polarized sunglasses, the 8x32 is "sharper" like an aged Vermont cheddar, and the 8x30 M7 is at least as "sharp" but has richer colors like Andy Warhol's Fauve photos of Marilyn Monroe.

Brock

Brocko

Yes, well, I always do have a tendancy to use 10 words when 11 would do the job.

Don't recall asking you a question Brock.

I like your similes and if you can tell the difference between a mature Cheddar and a glass of Merlot, you can surely distinguish between a day in autumn or spring.

Lee
 

brocknroller

A professed porromaniac
United States
Brocko

Yes, well, I always do have a tendancy to use 10 words when 11 would do the job.

Don't recall asking you a question Brock.

I like your similes and if you can tell the difference between a mature Cheddar and a glass of Merlot, you can surely distinguish between a day in autumn or spring.

Lee

You also have a "tendancy" to misspell the word tendency. ;)

Here's your question, if it wasn't aimed at the readers, perhaps it was rhetorical?

"However after swapping between them time and time again, a subtle but constant and reliable difference did begin to emerge. The problem is, can I describe it accurately?"

With the crazy way the weather has changed (more rainy days in June than April and May) and snow didn't stop falling until the last day of March, distinguishing autumn (or as we call it here, Fall) and spring isn't as easy as it used to be. It rains a lot here in the Fall.

Irish Spring soap is supposed to smell like a spring day, according to the commercials, but to me, the fragrance is so strong, it smells like old lady perfume and makes me sneeze and cough. But I have allergies, and I do sneeze and cough in spring, so perhaps that's the idea! ;)

I do understand what you mean about the view through HT, partly because your words were very descriptive and partly because someone posted photos taken through an HT, but I'm still not clear how the HT subtly differs from the SF or what it has to do with the different style prisms? I would think any differences in the AR coatings, distortion levels and the bin's ability to control CA would have more impact on the views.

Today, dielectric coatings are 99.9% reflective so A/K prisms don't hold the advantage that they used to in terms of higher transmission levels. Check out the light transmission levels of the 8x32 FL (with SP prisms) and the 8x42 FL (with A/Ks) on allbinos - the 8x32 beat the 8x42 in light transmission!

Brock
 
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Steve C

Well-known member
WOW, of all people, Brock the syllable Champion counting words in somebody else's post. Will wonders never cease B :)
 

Troubador

Moderator
Staff member
Supporter
Here's your question, if it wasn't aimed at the readers, perhaps it was rhetorical?


I do understand what you mean about the view through HT, partly because your words were very descriptive and partly because someone posted photos taken through an HT, but I'm still not clear how the HT subtly differs from the SF or what it has to do with the different style prisms? I would think any differences in the AR coatings, distortion levels and the bin's ability to control CA would have more impact on the views.

Today, dielectric coatings are 99.9% reflective so A/K prisms don't hold the advantage that they used to in terms of higher transmission levels. Check out the light transmission levels of the 8x32 FL (with SP prisms) and the 8x42 FL (with A/Ks) on allbinos - the 8x32 beat the 8x42 in light transmission!

Brock

Brock.

Yes that question was rhetorical because only those relatively few who have looked through both HT and SF would be in a position to judge whether my description was accurate or not.

Regarding the influence or lack of it by the prism set up, please see post number 10. This is not a pet theory of mine, it came out of musings by various folks wondering if there might be a difference. I have no idea what caused the difference I could see.

Lee
 

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