The shooting industry - why is it tolerated? (1 Viewer)

[birdboybowley]

Well fair enough. I rather rose to the bait (now there's a nice huntin' & shootin' metaphor for you!) on this one myself.

It's all healthy i guess.....! :-O

 

[HawkMom]

The wildlife restoration activities we enjoy in the United States today was started, and funded by HUNTERS. See this history here: http://training.fws.gov/History/TimelinesOrigins.html There is a 10% tax on hunting gear that goes to the funding of the Pittman-Robertson act. This was developed and is supported by HUNTERS to provide habitat for the wildlife we love.

Also see: www.ihea.com (International Hunter Education Association).

 

[martin kitching]

Lets face it Hen Harriers are being persecuted to some extent and yes it should be stopped but they continue to make progress and they continue to breed on grouse moors.

The Law must be having some affect as Hen harriers have made a come back, Is it enough maybe not but were heading some were in the right direction...

They don't, and they haven't...unless you're privy to information that everyone involved in studying/monitoring/protecting these birds isn't? The events of 2009 show very clearly that things are heading in a direction that is the opposite of the situation you are claiming exists.

martin

 

[karpman]

They don't, and they haven't...unless you're privy to information that everyone involved in studying/monitoring/protecting these birds isn't? The events of 2009 show very clearly that things are heading in a direction that is the opposite of the situation you are claiming exists.

martin

They were not found on the mainland at all in the 1900's.
All but extinct by all accounts the fact they are here today is progress?

I am not privvy to any information and struggling to find any information from 2009 numbers.
BUT IN GENERAL BASIS THEY HAVE MADE A COME BACK.
i have put it in capitals to make easy for you to quote.

Ok then lets ban shooting hen harrier numbers may rise but at what cost? And what about other raptors making a marked recovery, The walk home from yesterday there were 3 buzzards.

On the Rspb website after status it say's and i quote "recovery".
I will leave this thread to fizzle out now as it's getting silly with no real argument from the Ban shooting side.

As i have said if he harriers are being killed the law needs to be strengthened.


Karpman

 

[Adam W]

Shooting is a wide subject - wildfowling, grouse hunting, pheasant shooting, kids with bb guns, illegal hunters etc - all probably need a different response and cannot be included in the same wide brushstroke. But there is a tendency for overlaps to occur ...

I think thats the biggest problem whenever shooting gets discussed,far too many people dont seem to realise the wide variety of shooting that goes on or the wide range of people involved in it.For people to suggest that it should be banned altogether because some Hen harriers get killed on some grouse moors is ridiculous really because most shooting doesnt have anything to do with Grouse moors.
The problem of raptor persecution only really applies to larger organised shooting estates where large numbers of Grouse,Pheasant and Partridges are shot but this is only one aspect of shooting and one that most of us probably couldnt afford to be involved in even if we wanted to.
To ban the ordinary working man from shooting the odd Pigeon or Rabbitt or doing a bit of wildfowling just because some gamekeepers kill raptors to provide more shooting for the elite few would be completely unfair not to mention totally irrelavent to the problem.

I will just add that i dont actually have any problem with the larger shooting estates or the generally wealthier people involved in them and by now means all of them are guilty of illegal practices ,it does play a very important part in our countryside and would be a very sad loss and certainly wouldnt benifit Hen Harriers in the long run.

 

[Johnners]

The real reasons as to why shooting (deer and birds) persists and is tolerated in this country are a) it's traditional and b) it's a cash crop upon land which cannot support a profit otherwise. Education and the full weight of the law are the main tools to use against ignorant and unfeeling gamekeepers who persist in their Victorian practices.

Those who support shooting per se and its ethics because it's a manly, hunting thing should step forward out of the Stone age - the 'I've got a bigger club than you' philosophy is rather pathetic in modern society, don't you think?

Karpman's very much in error if he thinks the Ban Shooting thread will 'fizzle out'. Yes, it's controversial; yes, it's emotive; yes, it's polarizing - but no, as long as there's breath in my body, I will always rail against illegal, unnecessary killing of raptors on moors - or anywhere else, for that matter.

 

[Adam W]

Those who support shooting per se and its ethics because it's a manly, hunting thing should step forward out of the Stone age - the 'I've got a bigger club than you' philosophy is rather pathetic in modern society, don't you think?

I can assure you that that is not the reason why people shoot though i could think of many things in life that would apply to which people dont seem to have a problem with or think is pathetic, big flash cars for example.

 

[Adam W]

as long as there's breath in my body, I will always rail against illegal, unnecessary killing of raptors on moors - or anywhere else, for that matter.

Thats the point, it illegal killing of raptors thats the problem thats what we should be focussing on which is what Karpman has been saying.

I'm probably the most openly pro shooting person on here and even i totally agree that illegal killing of raptors is completly wrong and shoulnt happen but banning Grouse shooting is not the answer to helping Hen Harriers and banning shooting altogether is just totally irrelavent to the problem and does nothing but punish those of us that arent causing the problem anyway.

 

[Johnners]

Adam W - I don't think I need you to assure me about anything.
If you think you know why people shoot, good for you - I never will.

 

[Adam W]

Adam W - I don't think I need you to assure me about anything.
If you think you know why people shoot, good for you - I never will.

Fair enough if you dont understand why people shoot but that doesnt mean you should jump to your own conclusions and criticise people for it.
If its a subject you feel strongly about but dont understand some aspects of it then perhaps you should try and learn a bit more about it and the peolple involved in it before criticising them.

 

[kristoffer]

For the "hunters" it is not enough to spend the time in the wild and just view the animals and landscape which I am perfectly happy with.

Instead, to get a true wild life experience for a hunter, something has to die. Also when I go home, the animals are still alive so others can watch them after me.

I can not understand that, and I can not accept it.

 

[Adam W]

Instead, to get a true wild life experience for a hunter, something has to die.

Thats not stictly true, yes we may set out with the intention of killing something but that most certainly doesnt have to happen to have a perfectly enjoyable day if it did i would have given up wildfowling many years ago.

 

[Johnners]

Kristoffer - I'm right with you there; let's just say that we're on a different, more life-sympathetic plane to those bloodthirsty bastards.

Adam W - The fact that your caveman attitude still exists is cause enough for me to defy your provocative post. Heh, heh.

 

[fugl]

Kristoffer - I'm right with you there; let's just say that we're on a different, more life-sympathetic plane to those bloodthirsty bastards.

Adam W - The fact that your caveman attitude still exists is cause enough for me to defy your provocative post. Heh, heh.

Do you eat meat? If not, you have a right to object to hunting; if so, you don't. That goes for you too, Kristoffer! Now how's that for "provocative"?

 

[Johnners]

fugl - Yes, I eat meat (and enjoy it) - but I don't understand the logic of your post, never mind your argument. The meat normal humans eat is obtained via law-regulated means, ie. from an abbatoir and supervised killing - if you, or Adam W want to eat parasite-ridden and bacterially-suspect wild meat, that's up to you, no matter how you get it. In fact, go right ahead - take yourself out of the gene pool.

And when did you suddenly become the giver of laws?

 

[fugl]

fugl - Yes, I eat meat (and enjoy it) - but I don't understand the logic of your post, never mind your argument. The meat normal humans eat is obtained via law-regulated means, ie. from an abbatoir and supervised killing - if you, or Adam W want to eat parasite-ridden and bacterially-suspect wild meat, that's up to you, no matter how you get it. In fact, go right ahead - take yourself out of the gene pool.

And when did you suddenly become the giver of laws?

Ah, that’s it. It’s not the animals that you care about, it’s yourself. Why so hard on the hunters then? Surely, if they want to risk their health by eating disease-ridden meat that’s their business (not that I concede for one minute “wild” meat poses a significant health hazard).

For my part, on both ethical & health grounds, I’d rather eat hunter-shot game than the inhumanely raised chemical-soaked products of the feed lot.

 

[Johnners]

fugl - So; you don't mind what you stuff into your mouth. Coming from the land of MacDonald's, that's par for the course, I suppose. Ever heard of the chimpanzee/AIDS argument? Mind you don't break your teeth on the lead shot.

 

[Adam W]

Kristoffer - I'm right with you there; let's just say that we're on a different, more life-sympathetic plane to those bloodthirsty bastards.

Adam W - The fact that your caveman attitude still exists is cause enough for me to defy your provocative post. Heh, heh.

Oooh look at the big man swearing and name calling over an internet forum!

Well done for showing everyone what a complete idiot you are and turning even more people against your pathetic argument.

You dont know me or the first thing about me so dont come on here calling ma a 'bloodthirsty bastard' and a 'caveman' if i'd done that to you i would most certainly have been banned from here so might i suggest the mods do the same to you.

 

[lashinala]

Hopefully there's no lead shot if he's shooting anything larger than a pellet gun.
We are SUPPOSED to be using environmentally friendly shot on game animals....even though we allow fishing weights made of lead (my pet peave). Sorry...I digress.
And I'm with fugl on hunter shot meat....much better for us. Oddly enough, some of our animals are losing their desirability due to what's in them:
A lot of the frogs that people gig for have atrazine, among other things.
A lot of the fish have mercury...especially catfish.
Thank God our deer here don't have chronic wasting disease. Many in England will remember a related disease in their cattle.
Oh and McDonalds? I don't have a problem with them except for the fact that they encourage monoculturing, which is the real culprit. Also, avoid organ meat and russet potatoes, etc. (Botany of Desire covers this pretty well.)
AIDS/Chimpanzee? One should never eat one's relatives. For any reason. Period....at least that's where I would draw the line.

 

[postcardcv]

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