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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Alf King" data-source="post: 1405931" data-attributes="member: 22">It could be argued, in fact, that "natural systems" as you define them, are so rare as to now be unnatural.Semantics I know but some people (and I exclude you from this group) regard anything that comes under a human influence as not "natural". Does the action of a crow, for example, cease to be natural when it adopts tools to obtain food? Where is the cut-off between natural and unnatural.Oh, and steady states have never existed for that long in the "natural" environment; there have always been natural phenomena coming along to screw things up.==========================================================In response to the question of how many birds cats/magpies kill - what would be the current position if these birds had survived? I think I know the rough approximation of the answer :t: .</blockquote>